Speaker 1    00:00:08    Welcome to the Water for Fighting Podcast, where we discussed the past, present, and future of water in Florida with the people who make it happen. I'm your host, Brett Cyphers. I've spent 20 years working with and getting to know the people who've made water, their life's work, and I created this podcast to allow you, the listener, to get to know them as well. This episode of Water for Fighting is brought to you by Florida Water Advocates, Florida Water Advocates, where we're tackling the water resource challenges of the future today. Now, on to our guest who I'm really excited to have on the podcast, Eric Draper. During a sweeping 35 year conservation career, Eric Draper has been and is a leading advocate for water and land conservation and Everglades Restoration. His reputation is one of a person able to work with business and agency leaders alike, and he's credited with helping secure billions and new conservation and restoration spending and influencing major Florida environmental policy decisions.  

Speaker 1    00:01:01    He recently completed service as director of Florida Parks Service. Under his leadership, Florida State Parks became the first four-time winner of the National Recreation and Parks Association's Gold Medal for Excellence. Eric was Executive Director of Audubon Florida. Previously he was Senior Vice President for policy at the National Audubon Society, the Florida House Representatives Majority Office staff director and Clean Water Actions, national Campaigns director. His services included EPAs Environmental Finance Advisory Committee, Florida's Agriculture Commissioner's Water Policy Advisory Committee, working Forest Partnership as the co-chair, water and Land Legacy Campaign Executive Committee, sustainable Florida Board, Florida Ocean Alliance Board, the Clinton Gore, EPA Transition Team, the Florida Soil and Water Conservation Council, the Florida Water Management District Review Commission Partners for a Better Florida as the co-chair, and FSU political science department as an adjunct professor. In addition to helping clients with water project finance, Draper serves on the Board of Conservation Florida and chairs the Florida Wildlife Quarters Payments for Ecosystem Services team. He is a passionate road and off-road cyclist and serves on the boards of the Florida Bicycle Association and Capital City Cyclists. So Eric, you're a joiner.  

Speaker 2    00:02:17    Yes, I am. I feel like that was, uh, from, for my earliest days, I wanted to be, you know, in the club and where I could, you know, taking it the right direction and that I enjoyed that after a career of, um, of running organizations. It's great to be on the boards of Summon and give something back.  
Speaker 1    00:02:36    Well, I mean, you've done a, you've done a lot of that over the years. Uh, was service something you were always, were you raised with it or was it something that you developed, you know, as you became an adult and in a, in a career?  
Speaker 2    00:02:48    Yeah, that's a great question. I was raised in the military family. My father was in the Air Force, and, um, and I think that, I was just assumed that that's what you did, you know, growing up as you, in fact, that's what I was told is, you know, when you, when you get outta high school, you're going into the service. But, so that, that service, I think is very essential, uh, to who I am. I also just, you know, growing up in the sixties, probably, um, just had a sense that there were things that needed to be addressed in the world, and I think I felt most excited when I was, you know, joining a cause and leading a cause.  

Speaker 1    00:03:26    Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I guess that explains, uh, you being from Tampa, your father being in the Air Force, I assume it had you came, they came to Tampa at least, uh, for McDill.  
Speaker 2    00:03:37    Yes. Uh, he, he was stationed at McGill. Met my mother at McGill. I was born in McDill at Air Force Base. I have a real sense of affinity with that particular place. And, um, and then he retired, uh, and, and moved, moved us back to Tampa. Uh, I don't think that being, uh, an, an air force, uh, sergeant ever left hi. His sense of who he was, he wanted to become a teacher. Uh, so Tampa is our home, and I, I always think about it that way as, as you might have mentioned. But, um, we left, um, after I ran a political campaign for George Sheldon. Um, and George was a, was a legislator. And after redistricting in Florida, there was a, a newly created district over in the West coast. And, uh, unfortunately we lost that, that election. Um, but, um, at that point we decided that it was, it was time to pull up roots and, and leave Tampa. And, uh, we came to Tallahassee and then, um, and very quickly went up to Washington dc which is where I really launched my environmental career.  
Speaker 2    00:04:47    Yes, yeah. Uh, college, uh, university of South Florida, uh, studied philosophy. And then, um, got into, uh, the political work there in the Tampa area. Again, I said I, I worked for George Sheldon. It was this legislative Abe, which is my first introduction to, uh, to legislative activity. Uh, he was hoping for a congressional district that he could run in. Uh, and, and then I helped him with that particular campaign. He may be a campaign manager, which I think was not his best decision. Um, but we ran a very, very effective campaign. R won a four-way primary unit and got some help from some environmental groups that came down from Washington, DC and, uh, knocked on doors for us. And I was so impressed with the environmental work that they did, just knocking on doors and delivering, delivering extra vote for us. So I said, you know, at some point I wanted to do that sort of thing. At that time, there was no such thing. It was an environmental professional. There was, you know, Ralph Nader and, and a few other people. Most of the national environmental groups were just getting started and were made up of, um, you know, biologists for the most part. But the idea of, of becoming a, an environmental lobbyist, was it, it was not a career at that time.  
Speaker 1    00:06:03    <laugh>. Yeah. So you, you study, uh, philosophy at usf and you go from philosophy to, uh, politics and, and the environment. Was that just a, was the, the politics just a function of being a, a college student and you're involved in, in those kinds of, of groups and the environment was something that you were attracted to? Or was there something in philosophy that you looked at that said, uh, that turned you on to, uh, you know, conservation politics?  
Speaker 2    00:06:34    Well, I was involved in, in politics college, uh, and, um, ran for student body president, fortunately, didn't win that particular race <laugh>, uh, but was very involved in, in student government, um, and enjoyed that. It was just, you know, that was, that was kind of my gang that, that I hung out with. Uh, and I think I gained organizational skills, uh, there, that, that proved to be very, very useful in the, uh, political environment. I was, uh, an organizer at Psin College. Uh, this was at the tail end of the student activism period. Um, but I think the organizational skills that I had helped me to get involved in politics. One of the first things I did was organize the, uh, get out the vote for Sheldon when he ran for, for the legislature. Uh, at that time, uh, Ted Kennedy was running against Jimmy Carter, and I was involved in that campaign, some, uh, so those skills, uh, turned out to be very useful. And I continued to do political work through my, uh, environmental advocacy at, I took off every election season, uh, right up until well through 1990, took time off to work for whatever candidate needed help at that time, the environmental groups would actually reactively recruit their professional staff, and we'd stop lobbying, stop the campaigns, issue campaigns, and, and go out and knock on doors someplace. So, yeah, that, that all started in, in college, and I enjoyed it, and it was good to figure out a way to get paid to do it.  
Speaker 1    00:08:04    So in those early years, would you consider Sheldon to be one of your early mentors, or were there, were there others that, that you looked to that you, that you, that really kind of helped you moved into the, the, the next step of, of your career?  
Speaker 2    00:08:17    Uh, George Sheldon was absolutely an, an early mentor and kind of took me from my, you know, rough thinking. And, uh, I was a fairly left wing thinking and told me that, uh, if I just put on a gray suit and cut my hair, that I, that I could pretty much think and anything that I wanted to think. And, and that's pretty much what, uh, what I did. And, um, I learned a great deal from George Sheldon. I, I regret that we didn't, we didn't put him into Congress because I think that he was just a terrific public servant and, uh, terrific leader and someone that was born to, to lead and to to serve. Um, I learned a lot from that campaign also, including those were the, some of the early days when you started seeing the really personalized attack ads that started coming, uh, across the country. And so that gave me a, a better sense of political communication.  
Speaker 1    00:09:11    What year was that, do you remember? That  
Speaker 2    00:09:12    Was 1982. Okay. And Ronald Reagan was president. He was pretty popular. Unemployment was incredibly high. It was about 10%. Uh, the economy was not in particularly good shape. Um, but, uh, we ran a campaign that I, I really enjoyed and helped to organize, called George Sheldon's campaign to save Social security and Medicare. And, uh, I learned from a political consultant, the, the issue of messaging. And he said, it, it, if somebody asks you what the weather is today, you say it's rainy, but we've gotta save Social security and Medicare <laugh>. So I, I I, I learned the practice of, of working your issue into everything that you talked about,  
Speaker 1    00:09:53    And you do. I mean, you've done a bit of that, but I, I think the thing that, that I get to is in that regard is you seem like you take, uh, a lot of pride in being able to work with folks across the aisle. Does that mean, is, I mean, is that, do I have that right? I mean, you, you work with folks pretty easily. Uh, they seem to respect you and respect your opinion. Is that by design, or is it just happened that way?  
Speaker 2    00:10:16    You know, I think I've always been a pretty good listener. Uh, part of that has to do with the fact that I've, I've, I have a hearing impairment that I've always had, uh, since a child. And when that's the case, you're, you're mostly looking at people's faces and listening to them. Uh, I think, I think you've got to, um, forget your passion and your, your pride and, and look and, and see how you can actually give the other person what they want. So that did come somewhat intuitively to me, uh, as I got involved in an environmental advocacy, uh, sometimes, you know, to a fault, as you probably know, there are some people in the environmental community that would attack me for being, uh, too easygoing with, uh, with people they consider to be enemies. But I wanna make a point with that here, and that is that, um, I think that environmentalism itself sometimes suffers by the need to create villains and enemies and monsters.  
Speaker 2    00:11:14    And there really are no villains, enemies and monster monsters out there. You have to, uh, look and say that there may be a business that has a reasonable expectation of getting something done. And so try and figure out what the business model is there, and then talk to them about how the solution that you want is going to, uh, help solve the problem. I remember one time in the, in, when we were really having wars with the sugar industry, and I had written, um, a new, an electronic newsletter and sent it out that said basically that the, the sugar industry was corrupting the legislature. And I, I got a complaint. In fact, my boss, uh, got a complaint about what I had said, and it, in order to resolve the conflict, I had to go to one of the sugar lobbyists and say, look, I am sorry for what I did.  
Speaker 2    00:12:10    I'm sorry for, for saying that about you. You've got a, you know, you've got a reputation up uphold, and you've gotta, you've gotta make a living. And I could see immediately how this hostility that existed between me and this other person, uh, pretty much dissolved, and I took ownership of my comment. And I think that that particular moment, especially kind of taught me that, that you gotta get past the name calling and try and figure out what it is that they need and what it is they want. And then ultimately, particularly when you're dealing with some of those much more powerful than you are, you gotta figure out how to get to. Yes.  
Speaker 1    00:12:46    And so, I mean, and so was that a, was that a turning point for you in terms of, of how you dealt with, with issues, I mean, or was that, Hey, I can point to that, to that particular case, or was it that, that changed or had a change in your philosophy on how to approach whether that be powerful or not?  
Speaker 2    00:13:03    You know, it wasn't the first time, Brett, I remember, uh, going out and working on a political campaign in North Dakota. Uh, it was for Kent Conrad, who was, uh, running for the US Senate. And at that time, the Democrats were just a few votes away from, from getting the Senate back. Uh, Ronald Reagan was the president, and, um, I got sat down with Conrad, uh, to talk to him about the campaign because I, I was working for an environmental group. We were gonna go and invest a lot of money in, uh, helping to, to identify voters and, and get them through the polls. Uh, he said, don't come out here and talk about the environment. I said, well, what do you want us to talk about? He said, the farm economy, at that time, people were being evicted from their farms. So I put together this campaign called Conrad's Campaign to restore North Dakota's farm economy, <laugh>, and it was very successful. We went around and knocked on doors all over, uh, North Dakota. But in that was a lesson in just set aside what I thought was important, listened to what they thought was important, and keep an eye on, um, what victory is. And fortunately, he won that campaign, and we became good friends over the years.  
Speaker 1    00:14:14    Nice. So, I, I, may I ask that because Eric Draper, who's, who's now had a, a camp, all various campaigns all over the country, uh, you know, it seems on environmental issues, elections, but you end up somehow in a Republican administration serving as the director, not in, but not next to, but the director of the Florida Park Service. How did that happen? Well,  
Speaker 2    00:14:44    Directly how it happened is I was doing what I did, uh, which is to recommend people for, uh, positions. And I had a good relationship at that time with, uh, still do I hope with, uh, uh, secretary Valenstein. And, um, and with, with David Clark, who was the new, uh, deputy Secretary. Uh, but I think that the reason I have relationships with them and work with them as I work with Noah on, on Governor Scott's, uh, environmental platform. Um, so Noah was, uh, was, you know, in, in, in a key staff role in the, in the Scott administration. And we had gone to Governor Scott over and over again with, with concerns about some decisions he was making and, and, and things that we thought that she did. For instance, we thought that he should actually take a position on climate. Uh, ultimately, um, governor Scott came out with a, a platform called, uh, keep Florida Beautiful.  
Speaker 2    00:15:41    Uh, it had been used for road cleanup, but he used it for this particular environmental platform. Uh, and, and Governor Scott put his arm around me and said, you're gonna join me in announcing this, this particular, um, uh, campaign. And, uh, and I did, because as they said, you, you worked on it, you know, you've gotta own it. I think that out of going back over and over again to the governor's office and saying, you need to have a commitment on the everglade. You need to have a commitment on Florida forever. You need to have a commitment on the, on the climate, uh, that, that led to building relationships. And of course, you know, here in Tallahassee is a, it's a relationship, uh, business. So I think that I became one of the environmental leaders who was willing to stand there and, and be in public events with Governor Scott  
Speaker 1    00:16:33    In that sense. Mean, you tell me if I'm, I'm missing it here. I get the sense sometimes that, uh, the war is over in terms of, uh, the old thought of it's a diametrically opposed idea. When you talk about, uh, the, the environment, uh, natural resources, restoration, preservation, but we're really arguing about, uh, means rather than ends. Would you, do you think that's fair, or do you think that there's, there's still y you know, massive disagreements out there in terms of the actual thing that we're supposed to accomplish? I look at Governor Scott and Governor DeSantis most recently, but this goes back from Bob Graham to Bob Martinez, uh, all the way up to, to the current one, there seems to be less argument over the weather to do something. It's the, it's the how to get there. It seems to be the most ag disagreement.  
Speaker 2    00:17:28    I think every governor since Claude Kirk as needed to present an environmental platform to Florida, I think it's, is just necessary to, to be, um, to be elected and to get reelected. And I think that, uh, uh, that Jeb certainly understood that. And, uh, it a advanced Florida forever in the Everglades. Um, I think Charlie, Chris, of course, that was, that was in his blood. Uh, but he pushed the climate issue back when it was before it was really popular. Uh, governor Scott was a little slow to come to that. It was not the thing that he got elected on. But I think that after, um, some stumbles, uh, some of them at DEP with, uh, with Secretary Vineyard, and, um, some of them that came directly from the governor's office, I think that they, uh, decided the smart thing to do was to, um, really focus on delivering some environmental results, not, not everything that we were, uh, trying to get done. Um, I mean, ultimately, um, you, you know, you continue that, and Governor DeSantis, I think, ran on, uh, at least an Everglades platform and seems to be in many cases, uh, delivering resources on the environment.  
Speaker 1    00:18:46    Well, he, he immediately passed an executive order right after becoming, you know, governor to, to that effect saying, water quality is going to be my thing. Uh, he got great advice from, you know, from smart folks, uh, my sense that you may be one of those folks, you know, that, uh, if, if not working with you know him directly then with folks that were, but he did make that, you know, uh, his thing. And so, is that something in your mind that seem, that seems different in my mind? It, it tells me that it's not a question as to whether these things are important. It's how do we, how do we pay for it? How fast can we do this?  
Speaker 2    00:19:26    You know, Brett, I think that you're right about that is, it is does become a question of, of means. And, um, and we, right now, it feels like we're in a, a, a good period for financing environmental, uh, programs. Uh, although a, as we have both noted, the maybe a billion dollars going into the environment from the state of Florida this year is nowhere close to the tens of billions of dollars is actually necessary to, uh, improve our water quality and to guarantee the future of water supplies. And then when you add on that climate and, and, um, and land conservation, um, it's a lot of money, but it, but it's not quite what we ultimately need. Um, so I think that there, you know, the answer to that question is yes and no. It's a, it's a good amount of, uh, resources that are going in environmental protection. Is it, does it reflect serious thinking about what the future need is going to be? No, I don't think that we're quite there. I don't think that we've really have completely made the case yet, that these are long-term things and the Florida has to make a, make more of a long-term commitment to it.  
Speaker 1    00:20:41    So you're in that business now, though, right? The the water project, finance business. Tell, tell me, given that gap we're talking about, tell me about how that, the work that you're doing on, whether it be the broad level or that, that retail level, which is maybe a, a local government you're trying to help.  
Speaker 2    00:21:01    Well, it's interesting, you know, we just talked about the, about money and and agreement that we, we need to put money into things. Uh, my entire career has been based on, on trying to generate money for environmental projects. Uh, I've got a story that I love to tell. I hope it makes sense, uh, for the sake of this discussion. Uh, when I was a, uh, gritty environmental lobbyist to Washington, DC and, um, uh, got President Reagan veto the Clean Water Act, aveta the Amendments to Clean Water Act. Now, I, I have worked on this, on passing this, this bill, and was pretty familiar with the, uh, with the specific policy issues. And there I couldn't understand why, uh, he was gonna veto the bill. Ironically, I got an invitation to the White House to a ceremony, which is where he viewed the bill, and I was kind of surprised when he did it.  
Speaker 2    00:21:53    And, but I listened to his exact words and he said, Congress, I asked Congress to send me a bill to clean up the nation's waters, but instead they sent me this budget buster. I was like, for me, I was like, ah, ah, that's what the issue is. I've been focusing on environmental policy, which is kind of hard if you're not a lawyer. And, uh, it's really an issue of money. And I switched my emphasis as an environmental advocate to money at that particular point, uh, helped to run a campaign to, uh, not only override the, uh, the veto, uh, of the Clean Water Act, uh, but also ran, uh, a, a field campaign in the district of the congressman who, uh, chaired the appropriations committee, uh, for the Clean, clean wa EPA issues, and, uh, managed to secure. And I really feel like I, I got this done, the first funding for Section three 19 of the Clean Water Act.  
Speaker 2    00:22:54    Now, most of your listeners are not gonna know what Section three 19 a Clean Water Act is. But, uh, you and I know that this is an important source of money and health to stimulate, uh, dealing with storm water over the years. Uh, so it, it ultimately, uh, comes down to every environmental problem. When you can't get it done, it's because the local government doesn't have the money, or the state government doesn't have the money, the federal government doesn't have the money. And that's the showstopper right there. So that is where I wanna put my effort.  
Speaker 1    00:23:25    Is there something you said for, when I look at, when I look at the, the, the gap in, in dollars to fund these things, do you lend some credence to the idea we're not providing, we're not articulating the what they get for the money part? What are the, the, what do I get for a billion dollars? You know, in terms of literal improvement in, in this natural system, it, it sometimes seems to me that it, it, people look at, at the, the money and they say, well, gosh, it just goes into this, this dark, opaque box, and then we don't really get anything for it.  
Speaker 2    00:24:05    You know, I think you've hit on a really good point, Brett, which is that agencies do a terrible job of selling the incredible benefits that they're delivering to, um, to the, to the public. Now, ironically, I say that having paid attention to the Twitter fee from the St. Johns River Water Management District, and it's like, wow, they're doing some really good communications out there. But I don't think the agencies, including the, the one that I work for, I don't think are particularly good at tuting their horn, the environmental community. And I've always believed this, and I always thought, um, this is should be our role, is we should be advocates for the agencies. Now, I think the, one of the mistakes that environmental groups make and and has always been the case, is environmental groups wanna be critics of agencies for the decisions they've made.  
Speaker 2    00:24:52    But you saw me, uh, in your role in government as coming constantly to agency leaders and saying, tell me what you're doing and what you need. And, and trying to get behind those ideas. Because I think that the environmental community generally, and advocates like me, need to be p, need to be cheerleaders for the agencies. Uh, because for various reasons, agency leaders can't quite get out there and deliver the talking points they need to deliver on many projects. Uh, so I'm glad you asked that question because I, you know, it gets down to kind of a fundamental thought that I have about communication. The public doesn't know what what agencies are doing. They don't even know what their local governments are doing. Uh, but they do pay attention to, uh, conservation organizations. In a way, environmentalists are validators of decisions that, that government is making, uh, and spending decisions. And so we need to be, um, good cheerleaders for the right decisions.  
Speaker 1    00:25:45    Are we talking about it the, the, the wrong way? Cause I want to just for the sake of argument, put some of that blame on the environmental side, which is, are we asking, are we asking these questions, uh, in the way that's most effective to get, to get to Yes. Are, when you read a, a newspaper article, they don't talk about, Hey, we need to convert these septic tanks to something better, and this number for this purpose, and this is what we'll get, we'll get for that. We hear, you know, we're not doing, we're not doing what we're supposed to do for the environment. Like, that's great. You just, you've identified a problem, but you haven't really identified a solution other than somebody's supposed to do something. Well, if, if doing something is the goal, they're doing it. But what, but what is that goal?  
Speaker 1    00:26:38    When I look at, uh, Florida forever, I look at some of these other, other, uh, springs restoration, the minimum flows, the minimum levels programs, they're a little bit more articulated. When you look at MFLs for Florida forever, it gets a little bit more nebulous. It's just buy, just buy more property. And, and for my side, it's, uh, look, looking at something like that is, I've got real water quality problems right now, not on, not on this, you know, not on this forest land that may or may not be converted to, to houses 20 years or 30 years from now. I've got algal blooms right now. I've got beach closures and fishery closures right now. And it seems like we're not, I don't see a lot of that kind of articulation of the why, specifically why, and then what you get for it is that fair?  
Speaker 2    00:27:36    Uh, it's, it's certainly fair. And, and particularly as a very well inform person, like you doesn't see the why, then clearly there is, uh, a lack of effective communication on the part of, of we laying constipation advocates. Um, and, and, and I will say that there are also many voices out there, and they're offering a lot of different opinions. One thing that I admire about the Florida Wildlife Corridor, and one reasons that I've, I've given some of my volunteer time to helping the Florida Wildlife Corridor, is that they've been very specific about, um, the objectives that they have in terms of land conservation. And those objectives, um, you know, got, got conveyed into one of, uh, uh, Senate President PA nomos, uh, priorities. She spoke about it, uh, on the opening day of the legislature. So, uh, I think that gives it more purpose. Uh,  
Speaker 1    00:28:30    I agree.  
Speaker 2    00:28:31    One of the, one of the challenges that we have had in the conservation community, I, I remember going back to the amendment one work, is that it it is trying to bring all those voices together. There are so many organizations and so many leaders, and it is very, very challenging to, um, to have, um, a, a, a single voice. You look at some other, uh, advocacy c cause related organizations, there's not so many voices that are speaking. So, so is a little easier with the affordable housing people, for instance, to understand exactly what they're asking for and what they're talking about. Uh, I, I had complaints from speakers directly when Senate president sitting down talking with them and say, well, well, you, you know, Eric Draper with Audubon, you know, say this, but you know, somebody else is gonna, um, gonna say that that's not enough, or it's not the right decision. So I, I think that the environmental community would be much more effective if we could agree upon messages and, and deliver that a single way.  
Speaker 1    00:29:35    Yeah, I think that's one of the things that make it, make it hard on, on policy makers is often that sense of, I've worked really hard at doing this thing that I thought that we all wanted, and in the end, it's not good enough anyway. And so why do I, why do I keep having these same conversations, uh, or the, or the target changes, you know, based on, you know, uh, who you're talking to and when you're talking to  
Speaker 2    00:30:02    Them. And, and that Brett, frankly, as a, as a, as an environmental leader, was, was a concern to me also, as I be, because as you noted earlier in the discussion, um, I was one of the people who was willing to reach across the aisle and sit down with, with, with people in the, both in the business snag cultural community in many cases, tried to organize that, that agreement. Um, but it was always a difficult situation knowing that, um, maybe that was a good solution. And I knew the background on how hard we've worked to get that solution, only to see another environmental group come in and, and initiate litigation to completely unravel, uh, the very thing that had been so hard won, uh, and, and, and negotiate it,  
Speaker 1    00:30:48    Is, is that something that you deal with or have dealt with over, over the years, is you've been, you're willing to work with whomever for the goal in the end. And, and some folks you, you, you know, may be subject to criticism from somebody else that says, you're not, you're not pushing hard enough, um, but you're in the room, uh, and, and you're, and you're actually accomplishing things. Is that, do you find, is that frustrating for you? Um, you know, as you're kind of working through these issues that you've had some significant success with over the years?  
Speaker 2    00:31:21    It, it, it is frustrating. I mean, sometimes you just have to leave your ego aside and, and know that, you know, someone's gonna throw a rock at you, uh, for, for not having, as being as pure as they might have been, if in fact, they were in the room and, and were negotiating, uh, the solution, uh, that happened on the Everglades a few times when, you know, you're pulled into the speaker's office and you're basically told what the limits of the deal are gonna be, and you can either, you can either agree to that and you know, and agree to those particular legislative, uh, legislative changes, or you can, uh, you can find yourself tossed out and, and not listen to again. And, uh, and maybe you end up getting run over, uh, in the process. Anyway. I, I think that what it, it takes, you know, going back to the original point, it takes a lot of listening to try and figure those things out.  
Speaker 2    00:32:15    And you just need to know, the hardest thing about negotiating anything is knowing exactly when to negotiate. I can look at lots of places in my environmental background and say, maybe I gave in a little too easily there. Maybe if we pushed a little harder, uh, we would've gotten a little more. Those are really hard things to second guess yourself on. I would like to make one point though, that there are some places where you, you just can't negotiate. You can't, uh, give in. So I remember the, the work that we did to stop Nearshore oil drilling of Florida. Uh, there was really well organized effort to change Florida's law to allow the permitting of oil exploration, oil and gas exploration, and, and drilling right off our beaches. And for all practical purposes, we had lost that effort. It was, it was gonna pass. We got ambushed early on. And some of the people that worked on that came to me and said, Hey, we're, you know, we've always been friends. Can't we talk about this? Like, no, we cannot talk about this issue. We're not, we will never negotiate. We will never, never settle on that particular issue. And, and I remember, I won't mention the name right now, but I remember overhearing a conversation, or Deepwater Horizon happened, and, you know, the, the bill went away and, uh, future speakers said, boy, we really dodged a bullet on that  
Speaker 1    00:33:44    One. Indeed. I, I remember, I remember being in, in some of those rooms as, as that was being discussed. And I think right from that, in that environmental side of the, of that question, Deepwater Horizon essentially acted as the, uh, the greatest, uh, you know, protagonist or advocate, uh, uh, against it. There, there could have been. And so, uh, what whatever plan there was, I think went on to some bookshelf, like in the, the basement, uh, Indiana Jones at the end of Indiana Jones Raider was the Raiders of Lost Ark or whatever he could, you know, they take the arc of the covenant and just tuck it back, tuck it, wade down in that warehouse. So, for a professional accomplishment, I mean, what's the, I know you've had, there have been many. Is there, is there one that stands out, whether it be Everglades, Florida forever, P 2000? You, you tell me. It's like, is there something that you're most proud of in terms of using your philosophy of either working, working together, or when you take a stand and it's like the, you know, this far and, and no farther,  
Speaker 2    00:34:54    You know, they're, they're probably a half a dozen of those things that I could point to in, in long, and I think successful career. Um, one of the things that I think help on the Everglades, it's kind of an illustration, is that in, um, when the initial Everglades restoration plan was being created, was really a water quality plan. And, um, I got some legislators to put, uh, to put a bill in, and then ultimately it was added as an amendment onto that bill, which was to buy, um, the Frog Pond, uh, down in the Everglades area. And that, uh, that was a, that was a sh uh, tomato farm at the time. It was a very, very productive tomato farm. And we managed to get put into the, into the legislation, the right of imminent domain. So we gave the South Border Water Management district the right of imminent domain to take the frog pond.  
Speaker 2    00:35:50    It was probably the last time the legislature actually voted in favor of imminent domain. Right, right. Uh, an appropriate a large amount of money. So I felt really good about that because that was not only a case of, of being aggressive and bold, uh, but also figuring out a legislative strategy in which the, the, the house speakers would see that bill and would, would cause the, the issue to get stripped off the bill. And then the Senate would put it back on and the house would take it off. The Senate would put it back on, but, but managing to actually understand the process and play the process in such a way that ultimately the sugar industry, which needed to get the, uh, needed to get the Everglades cleanup bill done, uh, agreed ultimately to throw tomatoes under the, under the bus, so to speak, mixed them out of force.  
Speaker 1    00:36:39    <laugh>, I guess, to, to, to take a, a small digression in that sense. Uh, I see, I see a lot of folks pointing fingers at each other when we look at water quality issues. When I look down at places like Southeast Florida, and you look at the, the St. Lucie River and, uh, Calusa Hatchie, and we're talking about those, those impacts. Uh, I see some folks pointing their finger at ag, and I see, uh, in, in some of those same folks, uh, are, are people with septic tanks, right, right. On the water, uh, in some of these counties. Um, and point, you know, pointing the fingers back, uh, you know, the other way. What's it, do you have, do you have, I want to hear your thoughts on what it takes to, to get folks to, uh, join together toward the same end is like, is it, is it a la is it a public education campaign where, you know, people understand, uh, what happens when they flush the toilet, whether it goes to a central sewer facility where it gets treated to some level, or, or if it goes into a drain field and then into, into the ground, uh, and then eventually into a, a river or estuary or, uh, some other, uh, water body?  
Speaker 1    00:37:55    That's a loaded question, I apologize. Or,  
Speaker 2    00:37:58    You know, it's a complicated que it's a great question. I mean, it's the kind of question that, that I think that we, we love these questions, which is, okay, so how do you, how do you figure out how to get the public on board? Um, because what we know is, is that every time that that Florida of voters are presented with an opportunity to do something for the environment, they vote yes. Whether it was amendment one statewide, uh, or, or whether it was the justice this last election cycle where you had five or six, um, counties where people voted to raise their taxes to, to buy conservation lands. In many cases, unidentified conservation lands. Uh, and, and I'm working with some Indian River Lagoon, uh, advocates right now. We just did, did some public opinion work. And it's, it is remarkable to see the willingness of, um, local people to pay to do things in Brevard County voters, um, not only voted to buy land, but they voted to raise their sales tax to clean up the Indian River Lagoon.  
Speaker 2    00:39:02    So I think that what happens is the, the, the public leaders get caught, I think in a little bit of an ideological bind. Uh, you know, we're not gonna raise taxes. That is one of the worst pledges that could happen in the state of Florida, because we've gotta ultimately pay to clean up our, our problems. Uh, the voters are way ahead of, of, of the politicians on that particular issue. They are willing to pay if in fact, you can explain the benefits. Now, I know this is not directly your question, but, you know, occasionally, I've been very direct with you in this mm-hmm. <affirmative> discussion about some of the, some of the mistakes that were made. I think one of the big mistakes that was made, and this happened in the Florida Senate, you probably saw it, is the commitment by, uh, by the, uh, the springs, uh, bill sponsor that people would not have to pay, neighbors would not have to pay to, for, to replace their subject tanks. And you, you really, that is actually, uh, a short-term failure of leadership rather than a long-term investment in helping people understands, like everybody has to pay to clean up their waste.  
Speaker 1    00:40:08    Is there something, but on that, on that senseo, is there, there's something d deeper to that or, uh, more foundational, which is you're, you're go where, where are most of the springs and the, the really, the outstanding Floris Springs, the most important first magnitude springs in Florida. Uh, they're all almost in communities that are not high income. In fact, most of them are, are low income. And so going in and saying to someone, Hey, um, if you could do something about this problem, would you, the answer is more than likely, based on survey work that I've seen, the answer is yes. They say, well, great, here's a bill for $16,000 or $20,000 to hook up. And, you know, and they're saying that's, you know, that's a half a year's pay, maybe more, uh, for some, or they may be retired on a fixed income, and they bought that house.  
Speaker 1    00:41:01    And, you know, like a lot of, you know, like my parents in the, you know, the early seventies, you know, in Florida for not very much money. And, and when they see a bill like that, it's, it's, uh, it's shocking. So one of the, one of the things I think about is how to get around those types of, of problems. So that's what, that's what the, the inspection, uh, legislation, subject inspection legislation from what, 2010, 11, why both succeeded and failed is people want to do the thing that, that they're having an effect on the environment and they want to do something about it, but the shock of the amount of money involved or that could be involved when you get down to it and not being able to explain what specifically one gets for, for that expenditure can be tough. And so, I I, so I get back to project finance to the money and looking at different ways of, of getting to, to that goal.  
Speaker 1    00:42:02    Uh, is that something that, that you think about? You mean you worked on, uh, Florida forever, you've worked on the Everglades. There have been clever financing schemes that have been put together over the years for both of them. Sometimes it was cash, sometimes it was, uh, bond issuance. What do you, have you thought about how to get to allowing people or, or providing a way to, to more easily, you know, accept those kinds of, of expenses toward, toward the good goal? The which, and not just a good goal, it's statutory responsibility to meet these water quality, uh, these water quality goals.  
Speaker 2    00:42:42    One of, one of the things I about the environment is, is we need to treat environmental expenditures as a capital expense, which in many cases they are, and to not be afraid to, um, to project those costs and to pay for them over a long period of time. So if you were to build a parking garage, you would say, well, I'm gonna finance the parking garage because I know that I can charge people money and, and that's gonna help to pay for the parking garage over 20 or uh, 30 years. And, uh, there's been a reluctance to do that on, on environmental issues. And again, I, I, I think that the, the leadership in Florida sometimes get stuck in this, in this odd environmental, I'm sorry, in the, in this odd pledge to be fiscally responsible when it's not really fiscally responsible is just not, not being responsible at all to say that it's more important to make our debt rating in Florida look better than New York's debt rating than to actually address the environmental problems.  
Speaker 2    00:43:39    Um, so if you project the, the wealthiest state, one of the wealthiest states in the country, one of the wealthiest places, places in the world, there's no reason that you can't, uh, project what the, the various sources of tax revenue are gonna be over a long period of time. And, and to address that. So I think that that is the biggest problem. And that's why, to go back to the, the question you asked, you know, why am I working on local government environmental financing? Because I think the most important question is every time you go to local government, say, well, you clean up this waterway, and most of 'em are local government challenges. Uh, they say, we don't have enough money to do it. Well, the legislatures put, uh, constraints on local government's ability to, to fund, um, uh, long-term, uh, bonds and debt service payments and to really obligate money to, to get these capital projects done.  
Speaker 2    00:44:32    Um, so that's, that's the major piece of it. And then I said, think going back to the point before, Brett, which is, which you have to be honest with people, I think people appreciate honesty. If, you know, if my car broke down and I took it to, to the dealer, and I said, and he said, well, you know, even though you've got a warranty, you're still gonna have to pay this amount of money. I mean, I'm gonna go up and then I'm gonna accept the fact that I have to do that. So I think that being honest with, with people to say, you know, if you're on a septic tank system, you know, eventually that's gotta be, you know, pulled out. Now, I mean, with the exception of some of the rural systems, or, you know, I live north of town here, I have a septic tank. There's no reason to pull that out of the ground and give them the location to this, but, uh, uh, and, and tell people ultimately they have to hook up to the, to the wastewater systems.  
Speaker 1    00:45:18    But to that, to that point though, I mean, you, you, we, we talk in these, these generalities and abstractions about, Hey, we've gotta get off of septic tanks when reality, uh, the point that, that you just make, that I think a lot of people understand, and certainly people that do what we do for a living, understand that you don't need to pull every septic tank. In fact, the chances are pretty good with the elevation if you're north of town. The elevation between you and, uh, and sea level is pretty huge. The chance that you get through that red clay to, you know, to we'll call a springs, that's a tough one, especially if you have any acreage. And so going to somebody, like, even if their septic tank has failed, it doesn't, I mean, it may provide a nuisance on their property, but it, but what is the impact to the environment?  
Speaker 1    00:46:02    I think one of the problems that we have is, is a thing I was talking about before, which is, what do I get for this? Like, you're, you're, you're, we, we talk about we've gotta get rid of septic tanks. Well, the, the folks that that show up to the town hall aren't the ones that know that they're in this, this neighborhood that's having a, a, you know, that's causing these issues that whether it people call a spring or, or any river lagoon, they're the ones that show up and say, what are you talking about? I live on 10 acres, I have a septic tank. What do you care about my septic tank?  
Speaker 2    00:46:33    Well, I, I, I think that, that those rural septic tanks, you know, I would just set that aside and just agree with you, which is, that's not the low hanging fruit of getting septic tanks out. And I was a director of Florida Park Service. We haven't really talked about that yet. Uh, it was, it was a great four years of experience. One of the most disappointing things that, that I experienced. And, and like you as being a Floridian from the Tampa area, um, I love op open water swimming. I just thought that was the right of being a Floridian as you go out and swim in those incredible lakes in the Tampa area. Um, well, as parks director, I got to swim in, in wa, Kiva Springs, right? Which is legendary. And I remember from my college day is probably the last time I had been there and actually gotten in the water.  
Speaker 2    00:47:18    And here you've got this beautiful spring that's just coated with this ugly green algae. Every square inch of the entire spring is like that. The staff have to, uh, clean the steps off every day to get the stuff so people won't, won't slip going into the, into the swimming area. And why am I making that point? Because Waka Springs is not a poor rural area. That whole area has been built up, uh, with subdivisions, many of them on septic tanks, and yet they've been told by their local governments, and they've had those homeowners, and they've been told by, uh, at that time their, their state senator that they didn't ha they didn't actually have to do it. So if you've got government out actually out there saying you're not the problem, uh, that counters the, the real solutions, uh, I mean, ultimately for wa, Kiva Springs to get cleaned up, it is not agriculturally affected Spring.  
Speaker 2    00:48:13    We've gotta get the septic tanks out. And I think going back to Martin County, your point on, uh, on the St. Lucie River, um, on, you know, St. Lucie County, uh, you gotta be ho honest with those homeowners and say, you've gotta get these, uh, wastewater treatment systems hooked up. I think there is a failure of, um, of elected, um, leaders to be as honest as they need to be with, uh, and, and local, uh, wastewater treatment system utility people to be as direct as they can with it is like, we gotta get it done. And by the way, we'll finance it for you. It's not gonna cost you more than the legislature just met last week. And as a result of that, you know, my insurance, my homeowner's insurance will probably go up by a thousand dollars. Well, okay, my homeowner's insurance is going up by a thousand dollars because I live in a state that has a lot of storms.  
Speaker 2    00:49:05    You know, I think that that, that taxpayers voters were not as dumb as people think they are. You know, they accept that there's gonna be a benefit and they have to actually have to pay for something. But I think that you're right that, uh, that there's a tendency not to, to help them to understand the benefits, uh, in a, in a really special way. I, I, if I can, I'll, I'll stop and take a breath, but I want to extend this discussion a little bit. I, I think that going back down to St. Lucy, uh, to the St. Lue River and to the discharges from Lake Okeechobee and paying close attention, um, to that debate, there is a desire to, to keep the agriculture industry, you know, in the, in the, in the, the gun sites of the, uh, Everglades advocates. And I think that that has created a problem down in the Indian River Lagoon of not addressing directly the septic tank problem. And you get into this either or situations the algae blooms are caused by the discharges, theology blooms are caused by the septic tanks. Well, the fact is that both at different times are major contributors to, uh, to nutrient issues in the water. And that both issues need to be addressed.  
Speaker 1    00:50:21    And, uh, and I think that's a, I think that's astute of you because it's, it's one of those, those things where I think when we, when we hear terms like, you know, keep the, keep the target, you know, trained on, you know, or the gun sites trained on agriculture, it cl I mean, it naturally closes off, or it provides a permission structure for the rest of us to say, well, okay, well, um, that's all ag. So I'm just gonna forget about the fact that, you know, I, and you know, you know, 90,000, you know, or so of my closest friends, uh, have septic tanks that leach into, uh, this exact same water body. And so provides, I think it, I think it provides, uh, a permission structure to, uh, to ignore the broader, uh, the broader problem.  
Speaker 2    00:51:07    You know, Florida is an agricultural state, and I think one thing that, that environmental leaders need to look at is that we need to work with agriculture to figure out how to deal with the nutrient issues in the farms and how to deal with the water supply issues. And there's been a great deal of progress that's been made, um, over the past, you know, 20 years on that there's been some pretty good leadership at the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services in the water policy area. We're not where we need to be. I don't wanna say we're done,  
Speaker 1    00:51:38    But I mean, do you think that we, we lose sight, uh, in these conversations? Um, and I, and I, like, I appreciate your, you know, your approach to these things, but you think we lose sight of, um, in these conversations, the fact that e even when you look at whether it's a septic tank or agriculture, were the reason that that, that those nutrients exist in these water bodies. Agriculture is not some sort of abstraction where they just produce nutrients, you know, into, into soil and, and substrate, um, because that's what they do. They, they do it because they're growing the food that, that we eat. And I think we lose, I think we lose sight of, you know, the fact that, um, maybe they're not the enemy. There's, we're simply got to be a part of the, the same solution, uh, that deals with it. So we can keep agriculture in, you know, in Florida, um, while making them partners rather than, rather than enemies.  
Speaker 2    00:52:32    I think we need to, to do that. I mean, Florida's got 10 million acres of agricultural land, uh, the last number I saw maybe more. Um, and it produces some very valuable food. And, um, in my experience, and, and I've tried to go out and actually have that experience, um, if you, you see, uh, producers trying to, if, if, if it, if it doesn't come out too much out of their expenses, because oftentimes the marginal operation, but if the state provides some funding to help them with the conversion to more, uh, efficient technologies for nutrient delivery and for water use, I think they're, they're only too willing to do that.  
Speaker 1    00:53:12    Oh, absolutely. I mean, from my own experience in, in Jackson County using spring restoration and protection dollars, uh, the cost sharing with, with growers, you know, Jackson along with, you know, corn and peanuts and, and soybeans, and we, you know, we go in it and they're saving, you know, millions of gallons of water a day, hundreds of thousands of pounds of, of nitrogen in the form of, of fertilizer. And, and the coverage is probably now way, you know, way more, it's been a while since I've seen the numbers there. Over 90% of every irrigated acre in the Jackson Blue Spring, uh, basin has a, they're participating and, and gladly. So, uh, um, I think people, I I think we miss some of those opportunities when we're having these conversations, which is, there's money's almost always the solution, right? Like, I, I hate to, I mean, we hate to be so crass about it, but you know, in the end, um, it, that's always the, that's always the question.  
Speaker 2    00:54:19    It, it, it is a question. I think it, it needs to be aggressively addressed because, um, we want the agriculture uses. There, there are key questions like, what is gonna happen with all that citrus land that's now gone vacant? And that may require some investment of public dollars at some point, and not just say, you know, citrus landowners, good luck. Figure out when the developer's gonna come to your land, because that's not necessarily the use that we end up wanting. If I can switch topics a little bit here, this is one of the reasons why I am chairing the payments for ecosystem services for the Florida Wildlife Corridor, is because those would be payments that would go, go to agricultural landowners for the most part. Um, these, um, in many ways, stewards of these vast landscapes on which, um, panthers and black bearers and gopher tortoises and, and, um, indigo snakes, things that, that we hold dear, uh, is kind of the symbols of natural Florida, uh, are roaming.  
Speaker 2    00:55:20    And, um, in many cases, when you really talk to agricultural landowners, you realize that in many cases they're family related businesses. We want them to be family businesses. We don't want China or some international, um, you know, company to own Florida's agricultural land. So we want to keep those family producers, uh, in business and some cases that requires sitting down and listening. You know, going back to the people with hearing impairments like me, you need to listen and try and understand. So you, you want to keep this cattle farm, uh, cattle ranch, you know, in operation is not, you're not gonna get rich doing that. You get a lot of land, but you're not gonna get rich being a cattle rancher, um, not like on tv. You know, is there some service that you're providing, like you're providing habitat for panthers or, or black bears that, that we can then provide you, uh, with an additional payment to, uh, to manage your land? Is, is habitat for those things? I, to me, that's, is a no-brainer, but that's, that's the job right now.  
Speaker 1    00:56:22    What's, uh, what's your role on, on that team then? Are, are, are you the one going out to, to talk with, uh, these property owners? Um, are you on the, the finance side of things where we try to, we try to move it to the, to the next step, which is, uh, paying for it. What's, how do you, I mean, how do you see your role in, you know, in that process? It sounds interesting for sure.  
Speaker 2    00:56:46    Right now we have a, a, a group of more than 20 people, some of the smartest, uh, water land, uh, agricultural people in the state who are working together in a voluntary way to, um, to come up with some proposals. And, uh, what we're charged with is to develop a proposal that, you know, for, for may ultimately become a policy for the state of Florida. You know, hopefully as we look at, as the legislature looks at how to accomplish the goals of the Florida Wildlife Corridor, uh, they will see that buying agricultural animal, that's one solution. But you, you really want to keep it as agricultural in, you know, putting conservation easements on on is a good thing. But, but as you know, from from your work, Brett, sometimes a conservation easement can be very restrictive on the type of agriculture that you can do.  
Speaker 2    00:57:36    Uh, and that's not necessarily what we want done. So another approach to that is a, is a, is a well used process of, uh, which is to, uh, figure out what the, what the value of those benefits that they're providing. You talked earlier about benefits and, and seeing if there's a way to efficiently pay them for that. And what that does for the landowner is, um, is it allows them to think about, you know, it's always a business. A farm is a business, uh, to think about what they're gonna grow and how they're gonna grow it. And, you know, what land, you know, how they're gonna manage their land. And, and, and if you can provide a little bit of marginal additional income to these landowners, it makes a difference between the decision to sell the land, develop the land, or move it into more intensive and less wildlife friendly practices. So that was a long speech about what the product is. Uh, my job is to, is to help to create the product and to ultimately get out there, uh, and, and enlist other people in saying, Hey, this is a good idea. We need to do this from Florida.  
Speaker 1    00:58:41    When do you think that, uh, proposal will be ready?  
Speaker 2    00:58:45    Our goal is to have it, uh, in time for the Florida Wildlife Corridor Summit in September. Uh, but, uh, who knows if, if, uh, there's a legislator, maybe they'll hear this podcast looking for, looking for a way to really help the state of Florida. There's no reason that, uh, as the legislature talks about, uh, the budget this year, that, that maybe some, some funds couldn't be allocated to make the program work,  
Speaker 1    00:59:09    Because some of that exists already does. I know that Hugh Thomas at, uh, Suwanee River Water Management District, uh, and you know, even I think predates him a little bit, is they call it something a little different. The, uh, payment for environmental services, uh, for, uh, forest land. Is it sort of in that same, uh, that same mold, but just a little more expansive? Cuz you're looking at different kinds of habitat?  
Speaker 2    00:59:35    Yeah, I'm not familiar with what Swanee's doing, but I'm glad you mentioned it. I'm gonna, I'm gonna dig in there and try to find that out. Cuz that's probably some of that land is in, is actually in the, in the Florida Wildlife corridor. So maybe the purpose has been achieved, um, and, and Florida has had the ability to do these, these sorts of things in the past. There's just a little bit of resistance sometimes. So, you know, why would we give money to, uh, a landowner and, and not get something in return? Well, what you're getting in return is you're getting this incredible abuse of their land. Uh, that's the public benefit.  
Speaker 1    01:00:11    That sounds, uh, sounds interesting. Look forward to, to seeing more about  
Speaker 2    01:00:14    That. Thanks for mentioning the, the Suwanee issue. I'm gonna dig into that one quickly.  
Speaker 1    01:00:19    I'm a, I'm a big fan of, of searching for other people with, with good ideas, uh, and trying to figure out how we can, how we can fit it into, uh, different places, different cultures, communities, uh, things like that. And so I'm not positive to how much success they've had with it, but it is a different way to turn the knobs, uh, to get to that, that benefit that, or the outcome that we're all looking for, which is, you know, how do you protect these places?  
Speaker 2    01:00:46    I think that's a really good point, which is that's why I like being the chair of a, of a big work group, because I don't have to come up with the ideas  
Speaker 1    01:00:54    <laugh>. Exactly. Exactly. So, uh, I think it's safe to call you an optimist. Are you optimistic about the future of the environment in Florida?  
Speaker 2    01:01:04    And that is such a, a tough question to ask if you, the evidence of people pouring into the state and, um, huge amounts of land being developed and, uh, still not having accomplished things that I've spent decades working on, like new storm stormwater rules, eliminating the land application of bios, solids, um, you know, Everglades restoration has taken much longer than any of us thought that it was gonna take, uh, climate change and not seriously addressing the issues of climate change. I think that would, would make one into a bit of a pessimist. I think in many cases, environmentalism is driven by pessimism. I think that we all have to work on being, uh, believing that the, that we will make a difference and believing that, uh, no matter the odds that we can get something done and, and get the result. And I think that we are oftentimes rewarded, um, for, for the effort.  
Speaker 2    01:02:08    And we have to keep our eye on, on those sorts of things. You know, you know, Babcock Ranch to think about, one of the things I worked on was, and you remember this, um, pep Babcock Ranch looked like it was heading for being split up into a bunch of five acre, you know, ranchettes. Um, and just when it looked darkest, you know, long comes Sig Kitson, and I know everybody talks about Sig Kitson, but I got to see him in one of his early moves and he comes in and he's, you know, he's grabbing a few environmental leaders and grabbing the financing and, uh, and, and grabbing the political officials and, and manages to put together a coalition and make something happen. Sometimes when it just looks like it's, you've lost, like, uh, Deepwater Deepwater Horizons stopped near shore drilling in Florida. Um, sometimes, um, you know, when I've talked about that campaign on the Clean Water Act back in, that was, uh, 1987, you know, I like to give myself credit for convincing that congressman to fund the three 19, but what ha really happened is he was from Saginaw, Michigan. They were just developing their tourism economy there. They had heavy reigns, uh, had combined sewer overflow and washed a bunch of pesticides off the, uh, farm fields up there, and it caused a fish kill. Well, Providence provided the fish kill to persuade this congressman that he needed to fund the Clean Water Act.  
Speaker 1    01:03:30    But, but I wanna go back to that. I mean, the things that you mentioned in terms of when I asked you if you're optimistic, the first three things you mentioned are things that there have been significant progress toward you, you where you would hope that would end up where the environmental community would hope that would end up. They're, they're working on updating the statewide storm motor rule right now. Uh, my my understanding is it may be in front of the legislature this year, um, to, to ratify. You've got the Everglades though, being slow. Uh, it's not for a want of, of money, uh, toward these projects. And so I, when I look at at, at things like, like that, it's, it does feel like, are we being unnecessarily pep pessimistic because we're talking about pace rather than, rather than the end, aren't we in that sense?  
Speaker 2    01:04:20    You know, I'm so glad that you said that because that, you know, that, that, that's it. You have to look for, uh, the evidence of the progress that's been made, uh, and not get caught up with the fact that you haven't reached the finished line yet. You know, I, I was the long time leader of Audubon Florida. Of course, a lot of what I did was environmental advocacy, but it was a bird watching organization. And, uh, I, I loved to, to speak to the, to the birders and say, you know, the thing I love about you folks is you, you get up in the morning and you expect incredible things. You're gonna go bird watching, you're gonna see this rare bird and you're gonna see a lot of something else, pelicans or something like that. And, uh, and then if you don't, if the birds aren't there, you know, you still have had a great day out birding. And I think that's the way that we need to approach this, uh, opportunity. Something about the environment, you know, expect the best. If you don't get it, find some evidence of what you did, see that special bird and call it a good day.  
Speaker 1    01:05:23    Uh, at least that's how, at least that's how I've, you know, approached it in my mind at, at the Northwest Florida Water Management District is I look at the charge that we have this small agency, uh, with not an immense budget, but a budget that grew every year that I was there, the, and not from the inside. It was what are the projects we're able to do? And they start looking at, when you pause a few years into it, or I look back at 10 years into it in a list of those accomplishments, get gets long. It's like, did you fix every problem? Known demand is, uh, has what Color Spring met its Bmap goal yet? No, but I know it will because I know the plan to, to get there. And I think that may be something that, that, that folks miss is the ability, and maybe it's government's job for not, not talking about those things more often or letting someone else do the talking for you, but it's, but there, but to be able to recognize those tangible improvements in in places like that, I think for, for me, gave me a lot of, uh, satisfaction to know that we were, we were headed in the right direction.  
Speaker 2    01:06:39    And I'm glad that you mentioned your, your experience with, with advancing the Northwest Florida water management industry, always been one of my favorite agencies. And, uh, the fact that it's handicapped with a relatively small budget, and I have great challenge with so many interstate rivers and so many springs, and it's still amazing. But, but you, you're right, you have to look at, you have to look at the remarkable accomplishments that an, an agency like that makes and say, Hey, look at that. That's progress.  
Speaker 1    01:07:08    Yeah, and it's, I mean, it, it's thanks to folks that, you know, support us there. Like, you know, uh, the Noah Einstein's and now Sean Hamilton and, and even John Steven before who was a Northwest Florida water management district guy. And, and to have governors, at least from my perspective, to have a board that wanted to move in the same direction, having governors that, uh, that never once said no to me, to, to, to an idea that was gonna have a, a literal improvement. And so it was, that's why I see, that's why I see things a little bit differently, I think, than, than maybe some that, that want to, that wanna look a little bit more on the pessimistic side be, and I, I understand impatience, I'm not by nature a patient guy, but, but you're forced to when you're, you know, when you're in a, uh, a state agency, knowing that things take time and procurement to make sure that people aren't stealing from taxpayers is a thing. And, and that means that the things that you thought would take a year, uh, do not take a year. So what, what does keep you up at night regarding the environment in, in Florida? Is it the climate part, or is it, or do you believe there, uh, when do you believe that the Everglades or storm water, so is is destined for failure? I don't, but is is it climate that that hits you or is it something else out there that, that keeps you up at night?  
Speaker 2    01:08:31    Uh, I think that the, the thing that's gotta keep us all up at night is climate and, um, the failure of our international organization is to reach agreements about how to reduce the, the rate of climate change, uh, the projected, uh, temperature increases. And, and that does keep me up at night. Um, I see my children worrying about that and, and thinking about it in their future. I, I am troubled by the inability to, and, and we've talked some about communicating with, with consumers and homeowners. I'm troubled by the ability of, of rowing Americans to, to this, cause I'm somewhat impressed with what, you know, president Biden has done with this climate program, but you don't see most Americans as, as address is seeing this is a, is a, is a cri is the actual crisis that it is, and I don't wanna run this under the ground, but you're looking at, you know, a tremendous loss of biological diversity.  
Speaker 2    01:09:40    I'm a birdwatcher, you know, I, I I can see the, the, the net effect, but you're also talking about a tremendous amount of human misery, uh, that's going to take place if we project some of the effects off into the future. Maybe not me, it's not gonna happen to me, but I think about the people who were in those areas that are gonna suffer from famine and, and, um, from, you know, coastal areas that are washed away. And, you know, in my heart, you know, when, when I just let my human heart show up, that's the thing that I, I worry about and I have to ask myself the question for, you know, is, is a moral and ethical person what, you know, what can I do to make that difference? And I, I have not come up with any solution.  
Speaker 1    01:10:29    Fair enough. What advice would you give to young people who are just entering or are interested in entering the environmental field?  
Speaker 2    01:10:37    Well, it's, you know, it's the advice that I, I gave my daughter 12 years ago when she was just finishing college and trying to figure out how you take a BA in communications and turn that into a career. And I wrote her note and said, the world needs leaders. And, um, I think that the advice that I would give to anyone who wants to make a difference is you have to think about yourself as a leader in your in instead of studying environmentalism, study leadership, think about what it means to, uh, get people together. So I, you, I can go deeper into that, but ask a question about how do you get, how do you get people, how do you get a story? How do you get money? And, uh, you know, put that together and focus that on the right outcome. It's the same thing that solves any other problem. The world needs good environmental leaders to solve our problems. I mentioned earlier that when I started, there was no, there was no such thing as environmental professional. Right now, the world is loaded with environmental engineers and consultants and, you know, people that make good livings doing this. It's a growth industry. Uh, we also need the advocates.  
Speaker 1    01:11:43    So how can folks reach you if they wanna learn more about what you're up to and how you, how they can, how they can help you, how you can help them?  
Speaker 2    01:11:50    Well, you know, I'm not a big social media user, but I found that a lot of people were finding me on LinkedIn <laugh>, where I have my pictures standing in front of the Al Bloom at the Indian River Lagoon <laugh>. Um, and that's probably the easiest thing. But, um, my, my email address, if I was just to say it is w my first name, w eric draper gmail.com. And, um, I love talking to people. I love helping 'em.  
Speaker 1    01:12:16    That's great. Uh, huge thank you, uh, to Eric Draper. It's been a pleasure talking with you. Um, and you've been listening to Water for Fighting Podcast. You can reach me at flwaterpod@gmail.com or on Twitter and Instagram at FL Water Pod with your comments and suggestions for who and or what you'd like to know more about. Thanks again to Florida Water Advocates for sponsoring this episode of Water for Fighting. And, uh, again, special thank you to, to Eric Draper. Thank you so much for your time.  
Speaker 2    01:12:47    Thank you.