00:00:06:16 - 00:00:27:03 Speaker 1 Welcome to Waterford fighting. We discussed the past, present and future of water in Florida with the people who make it happen. I'm your host, Brett Cyphers. This episode of Waterford Fighting is brought to you by sea and shoreline. Sea and shoreline is the southeast leading innovator, protecting coastal communities from devastating storms and restoring ecosystems that once faced ecological collapse. 00:00:27:05 - 00:00:49:12 Speaker 1 Visit their website at sea and shoreline.com. If you enjoy the discussions here on Waterford Fighting, then you should definitely be reading the Florida Specifier and listening to the Florida Specifier podcast. The specifiers become Florida's environmental news source of record, and the podcast is your go to place for staying up to speed on environmental news and newsmakers here in the Sunshine State. 00:00:49:14 - 00:01:23:01 Speaker 1 You can join the discussion as we explore the latest environmental news and developments that matter to you. Go to WW dot Florida specifier.com or wherever only the finest of podcast are offered. All right, let's get into the show, shall we? Today I am excited to be joined by Government Affairs and Communications expert and just wait, tree farmer, blogger, turkey slayer and author of the multiple award winning book series Palmetto Pioneers, Cindy Littlejohn. 00:01:23:03 - 00:01:51:16 Speaker 1 Cindy has been a well-respected fixture in Tallahassee for over three decades. She holds three degrees from Florida State University. Go Noles, including a PhD in communications. She served in various government relations roles, including with the University of Florida's Institute for Food and Agricultural Science, more commonly known as IFAs, and the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission. She has and does still serve on various boards like the Florida Forestry Association. 00:01:51:22 - 00:02:13:00 Speaker 1 She's the owner of manager of Rose Sisters Tree Farms and is mentioned just a second ago. The author of Palmetto Pioneers trilogy, which I have right here in front of me. Cindy, welcome to Waterford fighting. Thank you. So and we were talking about this before we started recording. And typically I started with some talk about my guest family background. 00:02:13:05 - 00:02:35:11 Speaker 1 But you're kind of this interesting exception because you have published 1200 words about your family's background, or at least that the sliver, like you were saying, is like, you don't realize how how much is there in terms of family until you really get into it. And we'll get I want to get to that in a little bit, but let's just start slowly and go with you and your parents. 00:02:35:13 - 00:02:44:12 Speaker 1 Where were you born and grew up? I think Monticello. Right. Right. And let's talk about then your your parents a little bit. Are they also both of them from Jefferson County? 00:02:44:13 - 00:02:54:08 Speaker 2 Yes and no. And by the way, I sometimes I feel like a hypocrite because I actually was born in Thomasville, Georgia. 00:02:54:09 - 00:02:55:04 Speaker 1 Oh, okay. 00:02:55:06 - 00:03:18:08 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. Yeah. I didn't even understand that I was a Georgian until Chuck Littlejohn. One day we were out walking in one night in Thomasville after dinner, and I said, oh, by the way, I was born in that hospital. And he looked at me and he had this really surprised look on his face, and he said, oh my God, I thought you were a Floridian. 00:03:18:09 - 00:03:32:20 Speaker 2 And I said, of course I'm a Floridian. What the heck are you talking about? He said, Cindy, everybody's born somewhere. You were born in Georgia. You're a Georgia. Oh, my. I wanted to be this, but I was so bad now. 00:03:33:02 - 00:03:36:20 Speaker 1 I mean, were you living in Thomasville or is it one of those happy accidents that. 00:03:36:22 - 00:03:40:21 Speaker 2 It's actually Thomasville is closer to Monticello than Tallahassee? 00:03:40:22 - 00:03:41:11 Speaker 1 Interesting. 00:03:41:12 - 00:04:08:05 Speaker 2 Tallahassee did not have a hospital for a very long time. A hospital had just opened up. Mama said it was like a walk in clinic, and she would rather have. And most of the women in the Red Hills area, including Tallahassee, would go to Thomasville to have their babies, because that hospital had been in existence about three decades, and people would go up there to have their babies. 00:04:08:08 - 00:04:16:08 Speaker 2 The wealthy plantation owners built that hospital because when they were down here, they needed a place to go in case they got sick. 00:04:16:09 - 00:04:37:16 Speaker 1 Interesting. It makes sense. And so. Well, I guess, like it's tough. You like, I don't know if you if you slide on a technicality or not in terms of I mean, I was still it's still Floridian and in terms of like my, you know, like my mom was, was born in Pensacola. But little did I realize, I, you know, it's like one of those things I was I living a lie saying that she's from Pensacola. 00:04:37:18 - 00:04:44:19 Speaker 1 Both her father was in the Navy pilot, but they actually lived in Milton. More minor shock than finding out you're actually a Georgian, I said. 00:04:44:21 - 00:04:49:22 Speaker 2 Sure, nothing wrong with Georgia, but I liked Florida better. 00:04:50:00 - 00:04:59:12 Speaker 1 Sure, sure. I think if you ask somebody from, you know, anywhere south of the Big Bend, they would say it's all the same anyway, Thomasville or Tallahassee. 00:04:59:13 - 00:05:00:18 Speaker 2 We do sound the same. 00:05:00:19 - 00:05:08:04 Speaker 1 Little bit more, but let's talk about I mean, what were your parents like? Let me ask. Let me ask you that. Like, what did they do? Like what did your father do for a living? 00:05:08:05 - 00:05:25:11 Speaker 2 My father worked for Florida Power Corporation. Okay. His entire career, he was in Korea and came back to Monticello, married my mother and went to work for Florida Power almost at the same time. And ended up retiring from Florida Power. 00:05:25:12 - 00:05:26:04 Speaker 1 Wow. 00:05:26:06 - 00:05:29:04 Speaker 2 And he loved it. He loved the company. 00:05:29:06 - 00:05:41:08 Speaker 1 I guess you have to. And that's, you know, that's one of those I hear that more of of gas is like the, you know, where you had the old days where somebody that would, you would do a job at a place, you know, for 33. Five. 40 years plus. 00:05:41:09 - 00:06:07:14 Speaker 2 They moved. They moved people around. Dad ended up in Wildwood, Florida, for a time, and they would move families around. And we got to know lots of other kids in, you know, whose fathers and mothers worked for Florida Power. Jack Youngbloods mother worked for Florida Power, and we called ourselves Florida Power Brats because of it. Like Army brat, right? 00:06:07:18 - 00:06:12:23 Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Both my parents are Navy brats and sounds the same way, which is like if you're moving around. 00:06:12:23 - 00:06:24:12 Speaker 2 But exactly. You get to know people. And in that, you know you, the minute you find out they were with Florida Power, you ask them if they know their father knew my father. 00:06:24:12 - 00:06:24:21 Speaker 1 And you. 00:06:24:21 - 00:06:26:09 Speaker 2 Sure. A lot of times they did. 00:06:26:12 - 00:06:39:21 Speaker 1 But your earliest days were in Monticello. They were. Do me a favor, and if you can give me a picture of maybe your earliest memories. They're not just your family, but also including your family. But kind of like maybe the world around you a little bit as well. 00:06:39:22 - 00:06:52:07 Speaker 2 Right, right. Picture Mayberry. It's pretty close. We're still the only county in the state of Florida. It's Jefferson County. We're still the only county without a single stoplight. Wow. 00:06:52:09 - 00:07:00:14 Speaker 1 I, I read that, I, I think I read that somewhere in, I want to say, your blog, and I couldn't believe it actually looked it up. Oh, yeah. 00:07:00:15 - 00:07:24:09 Speaker 2 And there's three major highways that come through there. I ten, which doesn't. They don't have red lights on I-10. And the, the US 19 and US 90. US 90 goes from the Atlantic Ocean to the Pacific Ocean. And US 19, at that time went from Saint Petersburg all the way to I think it was Erie, Pennsylvania. 00:07:24:11 - 00:07:32:18 Speaker 2 But there's a big a courthouse in the middle and a roundabout. We did roundabouts long before the rest of the United States. 00:07:32:18 - 00:07:35:21 Speaker 1 Yeah, they're cool now, but y'all are doing cool way back when, and that's for sure. 00:07:35:22 - 00:07:40:22 Speaker 2 People hated it. Yeah, we used to watch people get lost on it. 00:07:40:23 - 00:08:03:00 Speaker 1 I mean, it's a lovely place. I mean, I live in here in Tallahassee and it's a gorgeous town. It is looking at old census data, still one of the smallest counties in the state of Florida. Think it's like the third or fourth smallest in the state. You know, and I think when you were a kid, probably about 89000 people typically not that much more than that over. 00:08:03:00 - 00:08:19:08 Speaker 2 The when I was a kid, it was 46 in size of the state. Wow. The state of Florida has changed a lot in my lifetime. That's incredible. We were still a backwoods state in the 60s, and that's what I grew up there was in the 60s. 00:08:19:09 - 00:08:44:08 Speaker 1 Yeah, I think, and we're gonna we're going to talk about your books later. But I'm a I'm a lover of history, and you put tons of history in there and is kind of, you know, interesting what Florida was, you know, pre statehood, you know, and, you know, pre-Civil War era and things like that. And then what it became after World War two, which I guess is maybe that's what you're saying is like when you're after, you know, after folks discovered, you know, Florida, they're in the, in the 40s that just kind of. 00:08:44:10 - 00:09:07:04 Speaker 2 They did world War Two brought a lot of soldiers in the state of Florida. You look we had a lot of biliary bases down here, for example, Carrabelle and and Camp Gordon Johnson. That's where they were. They were using the beaches there to train the men for the Normandy invasion. So there was a lot of training went on in this day. 00:09:07:08 - 00:09:13:00 Speaker 2 And I think that's when the rest of the country found us and air conditioning came along. 00:09:13:01 - 00:09:14:02 Speaker 1 That's right, that's right. 00:09:14:03 - 00:09:15:20 Speaker 2 Blew the lid off of us. 00:09:16:01 - 00:09:28:14 Speaker 1 Yeah. So describe a little bit more that Mayberry ness to it is like, but you have some interesting notes. I, you know, look, you have the is it the Grand Slam or they call it some sort of royal slam when it comes to turkey hunting. 00:09:28:20 - 00:09:51:14 Speaker 2 Hunting? Yes. Yeah. My father is the reason I've learned to hunt. He had no boys. He had three girls, I think. Also, I think we were poor as church mice. And I can remember him saying, Cindy, come on, let's go. You know, get us a mess of squirrel. And we would we would hunt right out the back door. 00:09:51:16 - 00:10:15:11 Speaker 2 We had a great area to hunt because our property backed up to Jumpy Run Plantation, and my aunt's father was the manager. And as long as we didn't mess with the quail, we could hunt anything else there. And so most of the time as I was younger, I just walked beside him. And as I got older, I started shooting more. 00:10:15:13 - 00:10:39:22 Speaker 2 But he was not a turkey hunter. My uncle was the turkey hunter, and he was so good that there was. Remember the Dukes of Hazzard? Yeah, there was a a guy on there, Enos, who was actually from Valdosta, Georgia and had an outdoor show. Uncle Ferrell was so good at turkey hunting that he came to Monticello to do a show on him. 00:10:39:23 - 00:11:04:22 Speaker 2 Wow. This was way back. And that's who that was. The master I learned under. I just got good at it. It really was important to me when I was lobbying, because it is a distress. Like, you can't believe walking in the woods early in the morning when when I call it the woods were waking up. All the animals, the birds are starting to sing. 00:11:05:00 - 00:11:10:06 Speaker 2 It's really special. And it's it's a decompress. It really is. 00:11:10:09 - 00:11:24:00 Speaker 1 Is it a throwback? I mean, being a kid, spending sounds like spent a fair amount of time in the woods. Is there some of that to it as well? Like the thinking back a little bit, a little bit of a simpler moments when you're, you know, eight, nine, ten years old, that kind of that kind of thing. 00:11:24:01 - 00:11:45:16 Speaker 2 I think it probably is. I think I never thought of it in that way, but it probably is something, you know, makes me closer to my father. I, I hunt by myself. I typically don't take anyone with me. And I never took my father turkey hunting. But I did go turkey hunting with my uncle many times. 00:11:45:16 - 00:12:02:02 Speaker 1 So are you one of those? And I know a few. Most of the turkey hunters I know are. I'm not going to say weird about it, but little obsessive, like very, very into it. I mean, do you have a special calls that you use the strategy, you know, nailed down? 00:12:02:03 - 00:12:27:02 Speaker 2 I'm actually better at scouting and ambushing. That's what I'm best at. Nice. I can call them in, but I'm not as good at that as some of the others. I've. I've been around and I use all kinds of different calls. The, the, the, probably the trophy bird that I got was in Osceola down in Highlands County. And I had given up. 00:12:27:02 - 00:12:49:14 Speaker 2 They were coming to pick me up at 9:00. I was on someone's ranch. It was actually a group of people hunting, and they were coming to pick me up at 9:00, and I had not heard a peep. And about 830 I got bored. And so I just started taking calls out and playing with them, you know, just practicing. 00:12:49:16 - 00:13:11:15 Speaker 2 And I was going through all these calls and all of a sudden I've realized before I step out of this blood, I need to look around. And I looked and there he stood. Oh my word, he was he was a big one. He had the longest beard. He had a 13 inch beard, and he was very old bird. 00:13:11:16 - 00:13:23:06 Speaker 2 And we think the reason he was so quiet, he had lost his dominance and he had to stay quiet. Oh, to move in on, on the hens. And he thought that was a flock of hit. 00:13:23:08 - 00:13:25:12 Speaker 1 Wow. Yeah. I mean that's the idea. 00:13:25:13 - 00:13:31:06 Speaker 2 So and I got him and and I actually was the only one that killed a bird that day. 00:13:31:08 - 00:13:33:17 Speaker 1 Wow. And he gave me to me to. 00:13:33:19 - 00:13:47:09 Speaker 2 Say, yeah, I'm a purist in that I won't shoot one in a roost. Right. I want, shoot one with a rifle. I just use a shotgun. And I guess I am a purist in some ways. 00:13:47:10 - 00:13:49:11 Speaker 1 Nice. Do you still do it? 00:13:49:13 - 00:14:06:09 Speaker 2 Not. Not as much. I'll take a kid out every once in a while. But I haven't even done that. I think my last was two years ago. I actually hunted in Nebraska again. Okay, they have Miriam's out there, and I went out to get a Miriam. 00:14:06:10 - 00:14:15:02 Speaker 1 So, I mean, you know, I know we're digressing a bit, but I am curious, like, what is what constitutes that Grand slam? And have you done it like several times over. I'm like. 00:14:15:03 - 00:14:38:09 Speaker 2 I have I have a royal slam. Okay, okay, I got the Gould, and there's, there's one more. I can go for a world slam. I'll never do that. I say never, I, I'm not going down to that part of Mexico, okay? With all the trouble that's going on down there, it it was bad enough going down there to get the Gould I went. 00:14:38:11 - 00:15:05:05 Speaker 2 The only place the Gould is in the United States is right on the border. And so you have the drug runners running across there. And it was actually at the time I hunted that Gould. It was actually safer to go on down into Mexico and hunt rather than hunt on that border. And so I flew into Chihuahuan City and then hunted in the Sierra madre down there. 00:15:05:09 - 00:15:29:20 Speaker 2 I actually took Chuck with me, and he had to sit in a blind with me because I, I was a little afraid about going out there, and I knew it was it was not safe when they picked the ranch, picked us up at the airport, and we stopped at a at a grocery store and they said, we thought you might want to pick up some things that maybe we wouldn't have on the ranch. 00:15:29:22 - 00:15:52:07 Speaker 2 And so we said, oh, yeah. And so we're walking around and I realized someone is telling us. And so we just stopped. I said, let's go to the front of the store where the the gentleman was that picked us up. I walked up there and he said, are you finished already? And I said, no, but I think somebody following us, I said, I'm very uncomfortable. 00:15:52:12 - 00:15:57:01 Speaker 2 Well, it turned out he was our bodyguard. We didn't know we needed one, you know. 00:15:57:02 - 00:15:58:11 Speaker 1 Trying to make feeling more comfortable. 00:15:58:12 - 00:15:59:16 Speaker 2 Yes. Me. 00:15:59:17 - 00:16:02:01 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. 00:16:02:03 - 00:16:07:08 Speaker 2 So I said, okay, I think I, I probably shouldn't be down here hunting. 00:16:07:10 - 00:16:21:14 Speaker 1 So let's go back to you as a kid, if you don't mind. Tell me what kind of student you were as a and I'm thinking like, this is not college yet. We'll get to we'll get to that. Like, what kind of what kind of things did you like about about school or did you not like school? 00:16:21:15 - 00:16:41:02 Speaker 2 I love school, I liked I loved anything that had to do with reading, of course, and I liked, I liked math, I liked science, I was not in the top of my class, but I skipped 12th grade, went straight on to college. So I was near the top of my class. 00:16:41:05 - 00:16:49:08 Speaker 1 So good. I mean a good class. Then how many? If you don't mind me asking because you're talking about a a small place. How many? Actually, how many people were actually in your class? 00:16:49:09 - 00:16:52:20 Speaker 2 There were about 90, 95 of us. Wow. Total. 00:16:52:22 - 00:16:54:15 Speaker 1 Wow. That's incredible. 00:16:54:17 - 00:16:59:09 Speaker 2 And so. And that high school served the entire county when I graduated. 00:16:59:09 - 00:17:05:08 Speaker 1 I bet. Okay. So what? So what? Tell me. You you finish early, and then what? 00:17:05:09 - 00:17:30:03 Speaker 2 Then it was a program in the state of Florida. I had to make a certain score on the College board exam that Florida didn't require the city or the a c t they had their own exam. Okay. Gotcha. And I had to have all my requirements before I could do it. I had to have a certain grade point average and also the school board had to sign off on it. 00:17:30:05 - 00:17:54:06 Speaker 2 I jumped through all the hoops, but they would not let me go to FSU. They didn't let any. The state of Florida. It was a program that you had to go to a junior college. You could not. And they were still junior colleges. Sure. And, you were supposed to go to the junior college in your district, but I put in for a special so that I could go to Tallahassee Junior College. 00:17:54:06 - 00:17:57:01 Speaker 2 Our district was actually the one in Madison. 00:17:57:04 - 00:17:57:16 Speaker 1 Oh, really? 00:17:57:16 - 00:17:59:17 Speaker 2 And they allowed me to do it. 00:17:59:18 - 00:18:01:16 Speaker 1 What was the name of the junior college in Madison. 00:18:01:17 - 00:18:07:05 Speaker 2 North Florida? Junior college at that time there. North Florida College now I think is state College. 00:18:07:06 - 00:18:12:13 Speaker 1 And where did they call the I mean, now it's Tallahassee State College was Tallahassee Community College. What was it before. 00:18:12:15 - 00:18:13:23 Speaker 2 Tallahassee Junior College? 00:18:14:00 - 00:18:20:01 Speaker 1 Okay, okay. And then did you have to finish an A.A. in order to the associate's degree in order to move or just start? 00:18:20:02 - 00:18:28:10 Speaker 2 No, I had to finish my first year with a certain grade point average. And then I actually got to go back and walk with my class to graduate. 00:18:28:11 - 00:18:28:21 Speaker 1 Oh, really? 00:18:28:22 - 00:18:35:01 Speaker 2 So I got to graduate with my class, and that that was special. And then I went over to FSU. 00:18:35:02 - 00:18:43:08 Speaker 1 Okay. And you studied, I mean, I mean, rolling through it three degrees, same place, all in communications, right? 00:18:43:09 - 00:18:45:13 Speaker 2 Different parts of communication. But all. 00:18:45:18 - 00:18:51:05 Speaker 1 Yeah, that's what I mean. It's like it's, you know, communications but like first why communications then kind of give me that broad band. 00:18:51:06 - 00:19:19:12 Speaker 2 The emphasis first one was public relations. The second was it's organizational communication. But another name for it is business communication. Okay. And then the third one I actually got very interested in the methodology behind how we study communication. And I thought that we should our studies should be more robust. A lot of lot of it is based on social statistics. 00:19:19:14 - 00:19:28:03 Speaker 2 And I thought it should you could actually count behaviors. And I thought we should have a behavioral methodology. 00:19:28:07 - 00:19:34:04 Speaker 1 Is that, is that looking at some like some sort of crossover with like psychology. Yeah. 00:19:34:06 - 00:19:41:18 Speaker 2 My cognates were psychology and statistics. So yeah, that's exactly right. It was behavioral psychologists. 00:19:41:19 - 00:19:48:17 Speaker 1 Has it, has it changed much over the years in terms of like that approach that more data and scientific approach to it? 00:19:48:18 - 00:20:11:08 Speaker 2 It's well, the the biggest change has to do more with the mass communication side of it. When you look at the way we're communicating now, social media, none of that was there. So you know what, when kids go to college today, it is really different from when we went. A lot has happened in the communication world. Yeah. 00:20:11:10 - 00:20:15:11 Speaker 1 I mean, I mean, obviously it seemed like a lot more technology driven, you know, these days and. 00:20:15:13 - 00:20:16:21 Speaker 2 Definitely, definitely. 00:20:16:22 - 00:20:17:03 Speaker 1 Yeah, it's. 00:20:17:03 - 00:20:28:09 Speaker 2 Pretty much but mass communication then was to I mean, it was television and radio and you know, now it's it's internet and social media, right. You know. 00:20:28:11 - 00:20:59:01 Speaker 1 Let's take a minute to talk about my friends at Sea and Shoreline since its inception in 2014, sea and shorelines, unmatched experience with scientifically validated methods of aquatic restoration has proven successful across more than 150 environmental projects. The company continues to be the industry leader in rehabilitating threatened and corrupted aquatic environments, with proven success in places such as Crystal River, Homosassa River, the Caloosahatchee River, and the Indian River lagoon. 00:20:59:03 - 00:21:26:14 Speaker 1 I've seen firsthand how can shoreline completely reset the ecosystem and Crystal River, transforming from a mucky, algae dominated system to one with plants that actually belong there? The water used to be full of Libya and hydrilla, with a thick bottom layer of muck that smelled like rotten eggs, but with sea and shorelines, comprehensive muck removal, and planting of native eelgrass, the system is now beautiful, crystal clear, with lush eelgrass meadows. 00:21:26:19 - 00:21:53:00 Speaker 1 The manatees are feasting fish of returned. Eco tourism is booming and property values have significantly increased. Sea and shrine is committed to restoring and preserving Florida's communities and aquatic ecosystems because they're Floridians and these are their communities to. To find out how you can partner with Sea and trying to help your community. Visit them@shoreline.com, you'll be glad you did. 00:21:53:02 - 00:22:04:20 Speaker 1 All right, back to the conversation. Tell me about you were a busy person during college as well, like you were doing. I mean, I'm looking at the jobs and they weren't like, hey, the, you know, bagging groceries by Publix here. 00:22:05:00 - 00:22:29:06 Speaker 2 I was actually, director of the Florida Outdoor Writers. Yeah, for two years while I was going to college. And that was something I could do part time and continue that. I tell you, the real reason I decided to go back to school was, the girls, Jamie and Tracy, our daughters, were hitting those teenage years, and I needed to be home more. 00:22:29:08 - 00:22:54:13 Speaker 2 Yeah, and I was traveling a lot. I was traveling all over the state. It was. I needed to be home. And I could go to FSU, back to FSU and get those degrees and be around for the girls more. And, then I took that job, as with Foley and also the League of Environmental Educators, right? That was another group that I led for a while. 00:22:54:14 - 00:22:54:20 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00:22:54:21 - 00:23:21:01 Speaker 2 Like it's almost like I got hired by Game and Fish because we actually moved that state program. And it was a it was a little bit of a fight, but I had I had a really good legislator that wanted it to happen. It was George Kirkpatrick. Okay. We have all the crazy things. He got someone he didn't want to do it himself because he didn't want his fingerprints on it at the time. 00:23:21:03 - 00:23:45:02 Speaker 2 But he got some one of the senators to introduce a bill to move the League of Environmental Education out of where it was before it. Actually, it had three legs. It was like a stool with three legs. Part of it came out of the governor's office, part of it out of D. At the time. The third leg was game and fish. 00:23:45:04 - 00:24:12:06 Speaker 2 And so we looked at it and decided the best place for it because we needed it to go to one. And we thought the best place was game and fish. There was no house companion. He tried his best, I did too. Nobody wanted to touch it in the house and there was never a house. Bill and I got to do something that a lot of lobbyists don't do, and that is I passed a bill. 00:24:12:07 - 00:24:12:20 Speaker 1 Right. 00:24:12:21 - 00:24:16:01 Speaker 2 That was just one side. It was just a Senate bill. 00:24:16:02 - 00:24:20:17 Speaker 1 Well, I mean, was it was it because there was money attached to it? That's okay. 00:24:20:18 - 00:24:44:21 Speaker 2 There was money attached. There were some positions attached to it. The governor's office really didn't care, but D wanted it. And that's where the battle started. Okay. And we were afraid. Oh. I'm sorry. You know what? Game and Fish was not the third leg. It was Department of Education. Okay? That was the third leg. Education wanted it and Dr. wanted it. 00:24:44:21 - 00:25:05:13 Speaker 2 The governor his office really didn't care. I think the governor's office kind of just asked us where do you want to go? And George wanted it to go to Game and Fish. And it really was the better place because the Department of Education was like a black hole, right? I mean, it just gets sucked in and you wouldn't know where the money or the positions went. 00:25:05:16 - 00:25:14:23 Speaker 2 We were a little bit afraid of DER for the same reason, because they needed money for other things. Game and fish just seemed like the best place they had. We moved it there. 00:25:15:00 - 00:25:17:11 Speaker 1 There were still there was DNR back then as well. 00:25:17:12 - 00:25:21:17 Speaker 2 I think it was d e DNR and DERI think were the two. 00:25:21:19 - 00:25:46:19 Speaker 1 It's, I mean, to be honest, like it seems like that stuck to this day in terms of the, the that general approach to education seem like fish and wildlife does a lot more that than, than the others. I mean, maybe it's just a mission thing or the availability, but that doesn't mean it's interesting that that worked out that way, which is kind of maybe a bit of a foreshadowing to your the lobbyist side, you know, of Sydney little John's like. 00:25:46:19 - 00:25:56:01 Speaker 1 But I want to ask you a question. I remember, you know, growing up in a young adult and seeing FCA, you were involved with that as well. During that time. 00:25:56:03 - 00:26:02:12 Speaker 2 I was there first membership, chairman and communication membership and communication director. 00:26:02:12 - 00:26:14:01 Speaker 1 So I mean, it's an opportunity to use like all these skills, you're doing a little lobbying and you're doing, you know, the like there's some serious, you know, communication stuff. Is FCA still exists or is it is that what CC A is. 00:26:14:01 - 00:26:17:01 Speaker 2 But a Florida? That's exactly what it is. 00:26:17:01 - 00:26:26:20 Speaker 1 It's funny I've never I until I, I, I was going through your bio. I didn't realize that that's where CC came from. It was more like what happened to FCA. 00:26:26:21 - 00:26:54:14 Speaker 2 Well actually all of this started in Texas. It was the Gulf Coast Conservation Association. GC right? Well, the problem and and there was Louisiana was a G, CCA also because it had a Gulf Coast. Well, they get to Florida, they start one in Florida. And Florida has two coastlines. We have Gulf Coast and Atlantic Coast. They didn't know what to do about it. 00:26:54:14 - 00:27:16:03 Speaker 2 They let us just be Florida Coastal Conservation Society or Florida Conservation. We just dropped it then, you know, it went on up into Virginia. There's several other states. Sure. Well, at some point they decided they needed to streamline the name so that it was the same from state to state. And that's where CC came from. 00:27:16:06 - 00:27:26:21 Speaker 1 That's fascinating. I mean, terrific organization. Good folks over there, Sandy, wonderful, wonderful guy. And I know that he's heavily involved over there just doing great work. 00:27:27:01 - 00:27:51:00 Speaker 2 He was a commissioner when I was there. He was the Marine Fisheries Commission commissioner. And when I was working there and one of the I have to tell you a very interesting story, they sent me to Houston that that was the headquarters. That's when I learned that all money was mixed up in all this. The the guy that ran it, his name was Walter Fondren. 00:27:51:03 - 00:27:59:02 Speaker 2 He wanted me to come over and learn how they do renewals. And they did renewals by direct mail. 00:27:59:04 - 00:28:25:21 Speaker 2 They wanted me to meet with the person that set up their direct mail program and the they said this person set up direct mail for the Republican Party to over there. When I met with the guy he said I want you to, I want you to meet when you go back to Florida, you're going to meet with the guy that's set up the Florida Republican Party direct mail program. 00:28:25:22 - 00:28:49:21 Speaker 2 And I said, okay, you know, and these names didn't mean anything to me at the time. The gentleman in Texas that I met with that set up their direct mail, his name was Karl Rove. And the gentleman in Florida that I didn't know from Adam was Jack Latvala. Wow. So I actually met Jack before he even started running for public office. 00:28:49:22 - 00:28:51:12 Speaker 1 So that mean. 00:28:51:14 - 00:28:52:11 Speaker 2 State public office? 00:28:52:12 - 00:28:53:20 Speaker 1 What year is that? Do you. 00:28:53:22 - 00:28:58:14 Speaker 2 This was 1988 to 1990. Right along in there. 00:28:58:16 - 00:29:08:20 Speaker 1 I mean, Jack Latvala, I think he ended up early 90s, probably at the latest, right early mid 90s. I think he held on to that, that business after he left office as well. 00:29:08:21 - 00:29:10:03 Speaker 2 I think so, yeah. 00:29:10:05 - 00:29:15:09 Speaker 1 Yeah. And I guess, you know, most people know what Karl Rove ended up going on, you know, do so right. I mean. 00:29:15:11 - 00:29:31:00 Speaker 2 Yeah, I, I was really surprised, in fact, when his name popped up again when, when George W was running and he became more and more important, I thought, oh my gosh, I know that name. I know that name. I actually went to my Rolodex and found the card. 00:29:31:03 - 00:29:31:13 Speaker 1 Wow. 00:29:31:19 - 00:29:35:23 Speaker 2 So that's when I knew that was the guy I had met with in Texas. 00:29:35:23 - 00:29:38:08 Speaker 1 I know you talked to Jack Latvala since those days. 00:29:38:09 - 00:29:40:23 Speaker 2 Oh yeah, many times. And worked with them too. 00:29:41:02 - 00:29:47:10 Speaker 1 How about the Texas? The Texas side of it. I mean, did you ever communicate later, like later on? You know, from that perspective? 00:29:47:11 - 00:29:51:08 Speaker 2 Not really. Not really. I moved on and got busy with. 00:29:51:08 - 00:30:08:00 Speaker 1 Other things. That's what happens. Well, that's I mean, let's talk about those other things then it's like, you know, when I that's that government affairs side of things. So you've shown at least it part, part of the education and certainly the aptitude for doing things that are important and moving things forward. 00:30:08:05 - 00:30:36:07 Speaker 2 My first job when I was out of college was in Walker County with Olin Corporation. Aleks. It was Oleinik sporting okay, but my second job was with a lobbying firm and this was 1975. Wow. I went to work for a lobbying firm here in Tallahassee, okay. It represented association. So it was association management and lobbying firm is what it was. 00:30:36:08 - 00:30:42:01 Speaker 1 So you had some steeped in a little bit of that world before you ended up anyway. 00:30:42:02 - 00:31:03:04 Speaker 2 Yeah. They, they I had my job was to monitor legislation. And so I got to see it from that point of view. I remember several people that asked, you know, about, you know, how do I learn it? How do I? I told them that's one of the best ways. Just monitor it and watch those bills as they go through the process. 00:31:03:04 - 00:31:04:15 Speaker 2 You learn a lot. 00:31:04:21 - 00:31:07:23 Speaker 1 Talk about your time. I think you spent the most time probably at IFAs is that. 00:31:07:23 - 00:31:08:11 Speaker 2 I did. 00:31:08:13 - 00:31:30:22 Speaker 1 Yeah. Talk about you know you being in charge of not you know participant. But like these are these are, you know large well-respected organizations I'd call like the stakes weren't like life or death is like but they're big. You know in terms of those of us who care about agriculture or environmental policy, water, that sort of thing. Talk a little bit about your experience there. 00:31:31:00 - 00:31:38:09 Speaker 1 I mean, was it something you'd already decided that, hey, I know that's what you know, I want to be involved in. What was the draw there to to. 00:31:38:10 - 00:32:09:11 Speaker 2 Those the draw was actually it was interesting and and game and fish, by the way, I went to work for Game and Fish. I didn't go to work for the fish and walleye. I actually lobbied the merger. Really? Yeah. That was that was one big thing that I got to work on the draw at Game and Fish. I learned later from some of the people inside that one reason they wanted me was because of my background with agriculture. 00:32:09:16 - 00:32:36:21 Speaker 2 I had good, strong roots in agriculture, and they were having a terrible PR problem with agriculture at the time. And so that was one reason I got hired. I don't know if you remember, but there was something called the White Ibis battle. It had to do with they were training law enforcement to go on to properties, you know, and there was a big pushback from property. 00:32:36:22 - 00:32:38:10 Speaker 1 Owners, right? 00:32:38:11 - 00:33:13:14 Speaker 2 They that's when they got in trouble with agriculture because that's who owns the big properties around the state at that time. And so I was hired because they thought I could be an in-between with the agricultural community. Same thing with IFAs. IFAs had just they're all of a sudden they were having a terrible time with agriculture, agricultural. They were upset with IFAs on many levels, and they hired me because they thought I could bridge that gap. 00:33:13:15 - 00:33:45:20 Speaker 1 Where was the where was the break? I mean, I was a, you know, a future Farmers of America kid spent enough time in, you know, the extension offices and things like that. What was that disconnect and maybe, maybe even help educate folks on what's the mission of IFAs and how maybe did that shift, you know, while you were there to to kind of be, you know, of more service to how I see it now, like I've dealt, you know, dealt with them from the water managers, great folks, important work, you know, for farmers and farming. 00:33:45:23 - 00:33:47:02 Speaker 1 It's like, tell me a little bit about that. 00:33:47:02 - 00:34:09:08 Speaker 2 There's there's three parts of I there's three missions, there's the teaching. And that's the College of Agriculture, we call it the cows. And that's, that's those are the kids that want to go into agriculture and they come out into the world. The second part is the research, and those are those research labs all over the state. Right. 00:34:09:10 - 00:34:34:00 Speaker 2 And because we are a state, you know, you go to Nebraska where there there corn and cattle, you know, you you go down into Florida and we are a lot of different parts of agriculture. We have we have a strong cattle industry. We have a strong, we had a strong citrus industry that I think's going to come back. 00:34:34:03 - 00:34:51:08 Speaker 2 We have a strong forestry industry. They we have a strong nursery industry. Here's one that most people don't think about. Tropical fish. Right. You know what the number two freight out of the Tampa airport is? It's tropical fish. 00:34:51:08 - 00:34:52:01 Speaker 1 That's incredible. 00:34:52:02 - 00:35:16:19 Speaker 2 Being shipped to somewhere else. That's the number two freight at the at the airport there. So a lot of people don't understand how all those different crops that we grow in this state. Well, when you do that, you end up with a tropical fish lab and then you end up with, you know, at one time the lab in Monticello was pecans and watermelon, you know. 00:35:17:00 - 00:35:40:12 Speaker 2 Well, those those are no longer we no longer do pecans and watermelon that much in Monticello. And so those have moved somewhere else. Yeah. And I forgot is extension. And that is taking that knowledge that you're learning in, in the research school and taking it out and making sure it is getting used. 00:35:40:14 - 00:36:01:10 Speaker 1 Yeah. And that's the, I mean, the, the early days, like my huge mentor like, you know, I'll of mine. Doug Holmberg is a nursery farmer out of Hillsborough County, taught AG as well. And that's where I grew up as it was. You know, we lived around, you know, orange trees and strawberry fields. And he tells bro. But he was a nurseryman. 00:36:01:10 - 00:36:17:18 Speaker 1 And so, you know, we did the ornamental horticulture identification. You learn about the I didn't I didn't realize that they would they would so individualize it until until later on. I actually went to the tropical fish lab there. I think it's a was at Ruskin or Apollo Beach, something like. 00:36:17:21 - 00:36:20:20 Speaker 2 It is. And I think it's really on that area. 00:36:20:21 - 00:36:29:04 Speaker 1 Yeah. So I mean it's so interesting was so where did the connection were you. One is were you able to kind of help bridge that, that divide? 00:36:29:05 - 00:36:44:07 Speaker 2 I told them I when I was hired, I told them I'd give them three years because I didn't plan to stay there, I loved it. I absolutely loved the people I was working with and everything, and I ended up staying nine years altogether. 00:36:44:08 - 00:36:45:01 Speaker 1 Wow. 00:36:45:03 - 00:36:52:16 Speaker 2 I wasn't ready to leave, but I kind of had to leave. Chuck was starting to get sick, so it was time. 00:36:52:17 - 00:36:56:07 Speaker 1 Did you leave it better than you found it? I think that's the what everyone knows. 00:36:56:11 - 00:37:18:21 Speaker 2 I think so, but I think it wasn't me. I think it it was our leadership. We got a very, very good executive vice president of efforts, Jimmy Cheek. Jimmy Cheek went on to be the, I think up there they they don't call it their president. They call it their chancellor. He became the chancellor of the University of Tennessee. 00:37:18:23 - 00:37:36:02 Speaker 2 He was hired away. We had very good deans over research, extension and teaching. And I think it was those guys. They were really worked hard. We worked together. We were a good team. We really were. 00:37:36:03 - 00:37:38:03 Speaker 1 Before we and I want to get to. 00:37:38:08 - 00:37:43:00 Speaker 2 And we had some success in the legislature that most of what I did was budget. 00:37:43:01 - 00:37:52:02 Speaker 1 I mean, that's what it's, you know, in the end, you know, budget is policy. And, you know, that's what it takes to to make the world go around and, you know, and so that's, you know. 00:37:52:06 - 00:38:15:17 Speaker 2 It was a major education bill. They revamped the entire education code while I was there. Wow. It was a huge bill. I mean, and we were in it, I never forget we were in 38 different places. So every time a new one came out, you had to go through, make sure everything was where it was supposed to be and nothing new had gotten at it. 00:38:15:18 - 00:38:33:15 Speaker 1 So now a days it's. And I don't think even it's not that long ago really where if you want to see an amendment, you either had to be in the room when it happened, if it was a late filed amendment because somebody hand wrote it or you had to go to documents, you know, the print office. 00:38:33:16 - 00:38:35:13 Speaker 2 I did all that. Yeah. 00:38:35:14 - 00:38:55:16 Speaker 1 I like when it's real work. I'm not that it's not hard. I mean, but it's a different thing. It's like the the shoe leather survives a little, a little better these days. That way. Let's take a minute to talk about my friends at Resource Environmental Solutions. 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Discover more about their work and commitment to Florida's communities and the environmental challenges they face by visiting www.org dot U.S.. All right. Now back to the conversation. So tell me about and I'm just going to I'm just going to lay it on the the plate so to speak. 00:39:56:14 - 00:40:05:23 Speaker 1 And I like to take it from there. Tell me about Mary Adeline Walker and William Henry Andrews and the Palmetto Pioneers. 00:40:06:03 - 00:40:35:16 Speaker 2 I actually started working on the genealogy beneath this back in, in the 1970s. And my oldest daughter was a baby, and a friend of mine needed me to take her place working for the county judge. I hadn't gone back to work yet, and so Jamie ended up in a little daycare center about two blocks away. And I did that job for about a month and a half. 00:40:35:18 - 00:41:05:22 Speaker 2 Next door to that job was a vault, and it was full of territorial papers from Jefferson County. And and we're one of the, courthouses that never burned. And we're one of the older counties in the state. And so there were lots of information there. And I started looking and I found my third great grandparents marriage certificate and a name that I didn't even know was kin to us, Andrews. 00:41:06:00 - 00:41:33:04 Speaker 2 I knew there were Andrews in the family in the county, and I thought probably part of that, and I found out I was wrong. But she came from South Carolina. But he was born in Washington, D.C., and with him came a political life. And that's when I realized I had a story and a I wanted the kids in my family to understand the heritage that they had in settling the state. 00:41:33:09 - 00:41:41:05 Speaker 2 And this was the only way I could figure out, because I knew if I wrote a book, this person begat that person. Nobody cared. 00:41:41:06 - 00:42:01:12 Speaker 1 And it's not it's not like that at all. Which I thought it was great. It's I haven't had a chance to read every word of all three of them yet, but it's enough to you recognize the style of it, which is a more narrative history. And I've suffered through enough of the, you know, this person begat that person, you know, to last a life. 00:42:01:13 - 00:42:15:18 Speaker 2 There's not there's not a tree, there's no, family trees until you get to the end. And then I showed you how they all fit because they it's it's hard when they have eight and ten and 12 children. 00:42:15:20 - 00:42:34:02 Speaker 1 And there's a lot of. I mean, you built in a lot of mysteries as well. I mean literally ends with, with one, which is I thought it was like a kind of mean that little curveball of the, of the dream of William coming back from, from the war. And that's the Civil War because the story kind of begins in the. 00:42:34:07 - 00:42:37:04 Speaker 1 Was it a bit late 1829? Yeah. 00:42:37:09 - 00:42:38:02 Speaker 2 It starts. 00:42:38:02 - 00:42:41:22 Speaker 1 Yeah. And so statehood is, as I think Floridians know, at least you should. 00:42:42:01 - 00:42:42:13 Speaker 2 45. 00:42:42:13 - 00:42:47:13 Speaker 1 Yeah. That's right. And so it's a territory is it even. Did they even have counties in. 00:42:47:17 - 00:43:13:23 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. Actually, Jefferson County was formed out of Leon County. Leon County at that time was before was formed out of Gadsden County and Gadsden County was formed out of Jackson County. Right. And then Jackson was formed out of Escambia. So that's kind of, you know, the the progression. Jefferson County was formed in 1827. We are about to have our bicentennial. 00:43:14:00 - 00:43:38:13 Speaker 2 Wow. Next year. At the time, we went from the Leon County line, that that line has been pretty close to the same all the way through to the Swan River and Leon County when it was formed, went from the Oakland River to the Swan River before. So you get the idea. You know, they were forming counties as as we grew. 00:43:38:17 - 00:43:52:12 Speaker 2 This was the part of Florida that was filling up. It was not South Florida. That's right. And it really wasn't East Florida or West Florida either, even though that's where the Spanish had their main areas where. 00:43:52:14 - 00:44:22:21 Speaker 1 It's kind of fun. It's like I'm a history guy and and I love that it's that it's there and it's like very well done, very well researched. The bibliographies are dense, but there's a there's a story to it that kind of runs through it. Can you talk a little bit about the the story end of it and maybe the, the inspiration for maybe the tone of, of that narrative, like life in 1820s, 1830s and on. 00:44:23:01 - 00:44:48:06 Speaker 2 Then Florida was hard. Yeah. I think that's what you really walk away with is, is how hard? And it wasn't just for them. It was for all four editions. It was survival. The highlights in those books are the the migration from South Carolina down. There are so few roads that really were about only four ways to get here. 00:44:48:11 - 00:45:16:01 Speaker 2 If you came by land, like one of the ways I two of them, I could mark them off right away because there wasn't enough water for the stock, and they brought down a foundation herd, and they could not have come that way because of not having enough fresh water. So then I, you know, I started looking at the others and the one one went way out of their way and would have added a week or more to. 00:45:16:05 - 00:45:44:06 Speaker 2 And so that's how I finally decided how they got here. That played a major role, the Indian War, which for them was the Second Seminole Indian War, which was the hardest of the three. A lot of people don't realize, but the Second Seminole Indian War was the costliest Indian war in the history of the United States. Wow. You know, even all those Western wars, it was this one in Florida that was the costliest. 00:45:44:07 - 00:45:51:16 Speaker 1 And the the first one and I think just before then, right, what it would have before the 1820s or late 1820s, anyway. 00:45:51:19 - 00:46:17:21 Speaker 2 It was in the 18 tens, and it was, it was really while we were fighting the War of 1812. So we were the southern belly of the United States. The people in Georgia were being attacked, and they thought the British was doing it in the British were. So that's why Andrew Jackson had some pretty general orders to come down here and take care of it. 00:46:17:22 - 00:46:18:08 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00:46:18:10 - 00:46:27:01 Speaker 2 Yeah, that was kind of if you read his orders, it's pretty much he was given carte blanche to do what needed to be done. 00:46:27:03 - 00:46:44:04 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, well, I still I could sing it right now. I won't make people suffer that. But I still know the old battle New Orleans song with a with Colonel Jackson. So you you broke the the series into three parts and that's the beginning is the is the getting there right. 00:46:44:04 - 00:47:16:00 Speaker 2 But in the Indian war. Right. And then she finally marries. And then Florida enters a time of peace and prosperity. And that's the second book. It's called from Harmony to hostility. The hostility is the Civil War is about to to come. And so by the end of that book, they already have soldiers, that are being drafted for that war into the Confederacy. 00:47:16:02 - 00:47:43:22 Speaker 2 But they're still in Florida. They're on the coastlines. Right. And then the third book, Yankees in the courthouse, it starts when they start sending our boys north to fight in the, you know, under Lee and and bragging people like that. The war really gets going at that point and that one goes that story goes all the way through reconstruction. 00:47:43:22 - 00:47:46:06 Speaker 2 And it stops in 1871. 00:47:46:07 - 00:47:53:04 Speaker 1 Right. And that's when when she died. Right. I think she did she die in 1870 or 80, 71, something like. 00:47:53:04 - 00:47:58:06 Speaker 2 She we we have the last documentation of her in 1871. 00:47:58:07 - 00:48:12:05 Speaker 1 Isn't that isn't that the mystery on both of them? Because talk about talk about him as well. Because there's the idea is like, did he survive the end of the Civil War? Did he make it all the way home before, or did he just disappear off into that? 00:48:12:07 - 00:48:37:05 Speaker 2 That's part of the book. Because we know he was alive at the end of the war. He was in a hospital, and there was a hospital record that showed he survived the war. The problem is, he was in Goldsboro, North Carolina. How did he get home? And we can't prove he got home. Right. There is a grave with his name on it. 00:48:37:08 - 00:48:58:05 Speaker 2 And Cuthbert, Georgia, short of digging it up, I don't know. I just don't think I want to go there. Right. We we can't we we have no idea if that's him. I do have Andrew's DNA, though. If it ever happens, I've got someone that that is a direct descendant of him. 00:48:58:06 - 00:49:08:08 Speaker 1 I mean, so me. But logically, is it kind of. I don't know, Cuthbert. I know Goldsboro, North Carolina is like, is it a kind of a natural like, does it make sense? The line. Yeah. You know, back. 00:49:08:10 - 00:49:26:02 Speaker 2 He was by then he was in he was never in a Monticello Confederate unit. And I think it was because he was sheriff in Jefferson County. And any sheriff has enemies within the county. 00:49:26:05 - 00:49:27:04 Speaker 1 Sure. 00:49:27:06 - 00:49:30:02 Speaker 2 I think he was worried about friendly fire. 00:49:30:03 - 00:49:30:20 Speaker 1 Oh my goodness. 00:49:30:21 - 00:49:58:22 Speaker 2 He never joined a unit. First he joined a unit in Gadsden County, Quincy. And then when he had to transfer, those units kept getting shot up. And all of a sudden there wasn't enough people to have a company. And so they they would move people, they could solve it. Regiments. They did all kinds of things. He got moved, to a unit in Bainbridge, Georgia. 00:49:59:00 - 00:50:28:11 Speaker 2 Cuthbert, Georgia is north of there. And it could be, I'm pretty sure Monticello men, if they came by train. And I do know I found a diary written by someone in his unit that they did come as far as Albany, Georgia, by train. Okay? They had to go through it. And that was because you had to go to the way that the ending of the war happened. 00:50:28:15 - 00:50:56:02 Speaker 2 They they had to go the Confederates, according to the agreement in when they stopped the war, had to go to their capital to get out of the service. And so the the boys that fought for Florida had to go to Tallahassee, the ones that fought for Georgia, they were supposed to go to Milledgeville, but Milledgeville Sherman tore it up, so they went to Atlanta instead. 00:50:56:03 - 00:51:18:02 Speaker 2 Atlanta was not the capital at the time, right. So we know. But he brought that diary, that journal that that train went from Agusta to Atlanta and then Atlanta down to make and Macon to Albany. Okay. And they the tracks that I guess they had fixed the tracks by then. 00:51:18:04 - 00:51:30:13 Speaker 1 You do a really good job in, in the book about treating history as it is rather than laying something on it, you know, moralizing one way or the other. 00:51:30:14 - 00:51:55:03 Speaker 2 Yeah, I could I did not want that. And that's why I wouldn't publish through a publishing house. Right. I didn't want anybody telling me I had to change, and I did. I worked very hard to stay in their mindset. Right? And their mindset. They didn't do things like call their chairman a chairperson, I mean, right, I didn't want any of that in the book. 00:51:55:06 - 00:52:18:00 Speaker 1 Is it? I mean, there's a certain I want to say, John Keegan, you know, very famous story and writer, you know, you know, my history classes in college, you know, you're, you know, the best professors are you've got to take people, places and things for, you know, for what they were then. Otherwise you cannot understand. That's right. And I think you just did a great job of staying in that mindset. 00:52:18:00 - 00:52:21:22 Speaker 1 It also, in my mind, makes for a better story as well, narratively. 00:52:22:00 - 00:52:45:13 Speaker 2 To, you know, used to books were written so that people made up their own mind about what they read. We don't do that anymore. We're trying to tell people how to think we need to go back. If we want critical thinking in this country, we need to go back to where things were written, and people made up their own minds about how they felt about what was going on. 00:52:45:14 - 00:53:00:12 Speaker 1 Tell me to to to wrap the last book up. Talk to me about the mystery behind Mary Walker's death. I mean, it's not as huge of a we don't know at all, but but that's the end point. Well. 00:53:00:12 - 00:53:28:16 Speaker 2 We we know, we know. She sold off the last piece of land that she had. It's pretty obvious that she and William, during the war, made sure that she and the children were protected. He was advising her to to get rid of the Confederate money, buy land, go ahead and and you know, get. And he had her put it in her name that way. 00:53:28:18 - 00:53:51:02 Speaker 2 You know, he bore arms against his country. That's treason in some instances. And it could have happened at the end of the war. Abraham Lincoln wanted to heal this country, and he didn't want that to happen. He knew if if he came down too hard on the South, this country would never heal and get back together. 00:53:51:03 - 00:54:10:20 Speaker 1 But and you talk about that, though, you know, in some detail the, the, the mindset I, you know, from letters and things like that of, you know, of like the very real possibility that that folks has like, you know, maybe we're, you know. Right. And I think that may have been something that that you had mentioned. I think you really just kind of mentioned it a little bit was that was a concern of Williams. 00:54:10:22 - 00:54:15:14 Speaker 1 Right. And what he was was, you know, whether or not officers and people like that were. 00:54:15:15 - 00:54:52:10 Speaker 2 Yeah. Would like all his property would they. And she was selling land during the time he was up there. But she still had that one piece, I think it was 180 acres, and it was south of town, down where we called Nash. And she didn't sell that until 1871. And then I can find nothing on her. And there were tax rolls that she was named as having land and things up to that point, including, you know, buggies and stuff like that, you know, wagons, etc.. 00:54:52:14 - 00:55:27:13 Speaker 2 And then they just stop. There's nothing. After 1871, I think she possibly died at that time. Also another indication that she died. A whole bunch of kids got married. She had 11 children and she raised three more of his. So she raised 14 children altogether. Those children, the the three older ones, had gotten married earlier, but her group but the oldest were boys, and they had all gone off to war to fight. 00:55:27:16 - 00:55:42:21 Speaker 2 All her children survived, and then she just disappears and all those children start getting married. I've learned from genealogy, if you see a bunch of marriages, there's a death. Look, look in there. Somebody died. 00:55:42:22 - 00:55:49:15 Speaker 1 Interesting. Tell me what's. Well, I mean, before I ask you what's next? Because I think there's a what's next? 00:55:49:17 - 00:55:51:14 Speaker 2 A couple of things I'm working on. 00:55:51:16 - 00:56:08:11 Speaker 1 First off, I want you to before I forget. Second, I'll put the I'll put the links on our episode notes for, for all three of the books I got online from Amazon. So go out and buy them there. But where else can people find tell the names of each one of the the books in the series and then where you could get it, even if you're local? 00:56:08:11 - 00:56:10:03 Speaker 1 Because I think there's a place. 00:56:10:05 - 00:56:37:19 Speaker 2 There's quite a few local places. Palmetto pioneers, The Immigrants is the first one. The second one is Palmetto Pioneers again, but it's from harmony to hostility. The third one, because people were getting the first two mixed up. It was suggested I make the name of that book and it is called Yankees in the courthouse, and it is book three in the Palmetto Pioneer series. 00:56:37:21 - 00:57:09:08 Speaker 2 You can find them here in Tallahassee. Hearth and soul. My favorite books, Midtown Reader in the State Capitol, the History shop, the the little tourist shop there in the Capitol, in both the new capital and the old capital. And, let's see, in Monticello, you can find it at Vintage Treasures, the chamber. And then the Monticello News office is about to open up and sell them in the front of theirs. 00:57:09:10 - 00:57:29:15 Speaker 2 And then in Thomasville, it's at the bookshelf in Quincy. It's at the gallery, the art gallery in Perry. It's at the Book Mart down in Crawfordsville. You can find it in the museum, the old jail museum down there. So it's all around the the area. 00:57:29:18 - 00:57:47:01 Speaker 1 Excellent. And you and you can definitely go find those places. If you're if you're not here in the neighborhood, then all three of them available on, on Amazon. And I'm guilty of the the person who mixes up the the first two I thought I had, the first one I did not. And so I thought was something was missing. 00:57:47:02 - 00:57:54:02 Speaker 1 Right. But let's talk about I mean quickly like what's next? I know you have at least one series coming up, right. 00:57:54:03 - 00:58:19:06 Speaker 2 Right, right. I'm working on a new series, but I'm also, at the same time, Mary's story from the time she was about seven years old. Would they make their move until just before the Indian War? I'm doing a children's book. It's called a middle grade children's book. It'll be for fourth through eighth graders. Okay. And it's it's her story, but this is her story. 00:58:19:07 - 00:58:44:23 Speaker 2 You see, the men come into it as much because she had a lot of brothers, and she had a lot of of sons. And, and William plays such a major role in the book. The second thing will be a young adult book that will be about the Indian War and until she marries. But the new series that I'm working on is Mary's one of Mary's girls. 00:58:45:01 - 00:59:02:22 Speaker 2 It'll it'll actually start with her. And it's her daughter who will take the family from Jefferson County in the 19 tens and moved to Indian River County. And they are some of the first settlers in that area. 00:59:02:23 - 00:59:03:12 Speaker 1 Interesting. 00:59:03:13 - 00:59:10:03 Speaker 2 And so it's a it's a different Florida story. It'll start in Jefferson County and then down there. 00:59:10:06 - 00:59:12:17 Speaker 1 I like the sound of it sounds kind of like. 00:59:12:19 - 00:59:36:05 Speaker 2 My mother was born in Indian River County. Oh, really? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But. And her dad moved, had to move down there with his parents as a teenager, and he was always trying to get back. And as soon as he could get his little family and find a job back up here, he moved his family of four back to Jefferson County. 00:59:36:06 - 00:59:38:15 Speaker 2 So that's how Mama met Daddy. 00:59:38:17 - 00:59:46:19 Speaker 1 I feel like this is a running like the Yellowstone TV series, where I like the prequels, you know a lot better. And so I did too. 00:59:47:00 - 00:59:47:18 Speaker 2 I did too. 00:59:47:19 - 00:59:53:13 Speaker 1 So I'm looking forward to to reading those as well. And reading your the third book. And in this group it's. 00:59:53:15 - 00:59:56:18 Speaker 2 You know, they're filming A Land Remembered in Florida. 00:59:56:19 - 00:59:57:03 Speaker 1 I heard. 00:59:57:03 - 00:59:59:10 Speaker 2 That, yeah. Yeah. I'm excited. 00:59:59:12 - 01:00:10:14 Speaker 1 All right, let's get to this kind of a closing. Call it a lightning round. Questions? Are you optimistic about the future of the environment in Florida and why? 01:00:10:16 - 01:00:39:03 Speaker 2 Yes, I am. It worries me. I have to admit. It worries me that, we're we're just building like, crazy, you know, and and land is turning over. The farmers are going more for higher end crops, and that takes less land. You make more money off of less land. We see what happens when something major happens in agriculture, like the big freezes in the 1980s. 01:00:39:06 - 01:01:09:03 Speaker 2 And all that citrus land disappeared right down the the turnpike. That that happened because they got frozen out. If you jump 5 or 10 years later, we're still doing the same amount of citrus, but we're doing it farther south. It's happened once before in Florida. Used to Florida's citrus industry was up around Jacksonville. One of those freezes pushed it to the center of the state. 01:01:09:03 - 01:01:49:13 Speaker 2 And then this last freeze pushed it all the way down. Actually, southwest Florida, the flatlands is where a lot of that citrus went. Yeah, I'm very concerned about that. But we are we are so far ahead of other states in our water quality regulations, things like that. I don't think people understand that. I understood it because I hunt in places like Kansas and Nebraska and up in North Carolina, South Carolina, and I am just amazed at how far behind they were Florida in environmental regulations. 01:01:49:13 - 01:02:12:22 Speaker 2 And part of it is I think we're louder about it down here. Here comes Washington. They're going to help help us straighten it out, you know? So, but yeah, I, I think we're ahead of most places I know if there's a lot of ISIS is, the farmers don't want to use any more fertilizer than they have to. 01:02:13:01 - 01:02:35:08 Speaker 2 They have a bottom line that they have to watch, and and the margins are so small that, you know, they don't want to use any more fertilizer than they need to. And that's one of the major things that I works on is how much fertilizer do you need to do that? And not a bit more. And how is it applied? 01:02:35:10 - 01:02:49:10 Speaker 2 All that irrigation research, all of that goes on at IFAs. They're constantly trying to stay ahead of all of it. So I think our state is ahead of most all the other states. 01:02:49:12 - 01:03:11:09 Speaker 1 Well, I mean, the second question, I mean, it is the thing that what is the thing that that makes you nervous or keeps you up at night and it seems like you covered a little bit of that. Is that your your biggest fear is that that we're unable to keep up with. I mean, you look at the citrus losses, but I, I heard you mentioned before that you saw a recovery of sorts on the way. 01:03:11:09 - 01:03:14:08 Speaker 1 And so that's more of an optimistic thing. But like. 01:03:14:09 - 01:03:42:18 Speaker 2 I'm optimistic. That's very that's a very good word for it. I just know that they find a way they they will figure out a way. They've been wracking their brains working to, to figure out how to stay ahead of this yellowing disease. And that's what it is now. While I was there, it was canker yellowing. Hadn't quite we knew it was coming because we knew it was in other countries, and we knew we would get it sooner or later. 01:03:42:18 - 01:04:04:17 Speaker 2 And they were already working on it before it got here. But this one, this one has really sort them. It really has. I think they'll figure it out. It looks to me like they they're doing it with scouting and they're, you know, taking the trees out as soon as they find them. We're growing citrus on younger stock. 01:04:04:20 - 01:04:07:14 Speaker 2 There's just all kind of different things going on. 01:04:07:15 - 01:04:25:05 Speaker 1 And lastly, what advice would you give a young person that's thinking of entering into an environmental field, public service, private sector, tree farming, you know, book writing. What's what's your advice for for a young person in general? 01:04:25:07 - 01:05:00:16 Speaker 2 You know, I, I don't feel like I, I actually studied after the fact. I had actually worked in these businesses, and I saw public relations as being important. My ability to write became important. I didn't do any of this writing because I didn't have time. I was writing legislation and, and, and, and sheets that analyzed the legislation and explaining it to people why we wanted what we were asking for, you know, why it was important to this state and to the people in the state. 01:05:00:16 - 01:05:29:19 Speaker 2 So, you know, that's kind of I just slid into it. And I think my advice to young people is be open, be open, and you want to have options. I believe in education. And, you know, it doesn't matter if it's a vocational education or whatever. Be open to what you can do and then don't burn your bridges. You know, I see a lot of burning bridges nowadays. 01:05:29:21 - 01:05:37:21 Speaker 2 I would if I'd done that, I would have never got to do half of this work that I got to do. And I, I've had I've had a great career. 01:05:37:23 - 01:05:46:17 Speaker 1 Well, I agree and I agree about the sentiment. And I think on that note that should cover it. Cindy Littlejohn, thank you so much for joining us. It was a great time. 01:05:46:18 - 01:05:48:13 Speaker 2 Thank you. And your it. 01:05:48:15 - 01:06:11:12 Speaker 1 Well that's it for this episode. Thanks for listening to water for fighting. And thank you once again, Torres. And seeing shoreline for making it possible. If you're enjoying the show, please be sure to subscribe on whatever platform you use. And don't forget to leave a five star rating and review. You can follow the show on LinkedIn and Instagram at Ethel Water Pod, and you can reach me directly at Water Pod at gmail.com. 01:06:11:14 - 01:06:31:15 Speaker 1 Send me your comments and suggestions for who and or what you'd like to know more about. Production. This podcast is by Lonely Fox Studios. Thanks to Carl Soren for making the best of what he had to work with, and in David Barfield for the amazing graphics and technical assistance. A very special thank you goes out to Bo Spring from the Bo Spring Band for giving permission to use his music for the podcast. 01:06:31:16 - 01:06:47:00 Speaker 1 The song is called Doing Work for Free. You should check out the band live wherever great music is sold. Join me next time for another amazing conversation with someone who has helped shape water and environmental policy in the Sunshine State. Until then, keep your whiskey close and your water closer.